Two ex-special operations guys armed with MBAs seek out people leading lives less ordinary, in order to find out how they fill their ‘unforgiving minutes’, and what helps them go, always, a little further. Like intellectual bowerbirds, we collect shiny little objects of knowledge that will help build better humans. Co-hosted by Ben Pronk and Tim Curtis.
Episodes
Thursday May 20, 2021
Thursday May 20, 2021
Ben and Tim first met Pete Naschak when he was on exchange from the US Navy SEALS to the Australian SAS.
Pete is an expert in resilience, elite performance and getting the most out of the people he works with, which has included Red Bull athletes and members of the US Olympic Team in their preparation for the upcoming Tokyo Olympic games. Of course in addition, Pete is a former US Navy SEAL, with an incredibly distinguished military career, and a current board member of the Lone Survivor Foundation.
We caught up with Pete on the eve of his dissertation defence, where he talked us through his time with the SEAL teams, including the gruelling BUD/S (Basic Underwater Demolition / SEAL) selection process, as well as what he’s doing now to help other people build resilience and increase performance.
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
03:40 Pete’s inspiration to join the Navy (hint: unlike Lee Goddard, it wasn’t a recruiting commercial!)
05:00 The rigorous selection process for US military academies
07:05 Pete talks the US Navy SEAL selection process
09:45 What does it mean when a SEAL candidate ‘rings the bell’?
14:00 BUD/S ‘Hell Week’ – about as much fun as it sounds…
16:45 The balance between mental and physical requirements on BUD/S
18:30 How does Australian SAS selection compare to BUD/S?
23:00 Graduating from BUD/S – and into the Teams, in 1989. What was it like as a SEAL back before 9/11 (and even before the iconic (?!) Charlie Sheen movie)
30:00 Pete’s final tour was as the Command Master Chief of a SEAL Team – what generational differences did Pete notice with the younger SEALs
35:00 Pete’s transition out of uniform – and how he transferred and adapted his military skills into his new roles
41:20 Pete’s work coaching the coaches
47:45 The tension between generalisation and specialisation – and its impact on resilience
49:30 The importance of exposure – forcing yourself to deal with different things
52:50 What is a ‘resilience shepherd’? And how can you spot them within your organisation?
1:01:50 What should you, as a leader, do when you identify resilience shepherds in your team?
1:05:06 What are the most important factors in creating resilience at an individual level?
1:08:40 What lessons can we learn from Marcus Luttrell, the ‘lone survivor’?
1:10:05 Pete’s daily practices
1:13:30 Pete’s take on mindfulness and meditation
1:21:08 Pete’s recommended readings
Email us at debrief@unforgiving60.com
Social Media (Instagram, Twitter) @Unforgiving60
External Links
Music
The Externals – available on Spotify
Ben Frichot - available on Spotify
Thursday May 13, 2021
Thursday May 13, 2021
Ben and Tim look back on Simon Eastaugh, Lee Goddard and Mark ‘Billy’ Billingham before turning their attention to the withdrawal from Afghanistan- & what has been achieved. Plus, listener feedback! Reflections on Anzac Day 2021 .... and much more.
As always, please let us know what you think. We’d love to hear from you – please email debrief@unforgiving60.com.
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
01:20 On Simon Eastaugh – Assistant Coach Fremantle Football Club
06:00 Why Ben needs a co-host …. Because of podcast time travel
08:45 On Rear Admiral Lee Goddard – Former Naval Officer and now at Minderoo Foundation
10:30 The problem with the current Army advertisements – Ben and Tim’s opinion (only)
15:35 On Mark ’Billy’ Billingham- ex 22 SAS and now television show host
22:00 The withdrawal from Afghanistan…. Some reflections
27:45 David Knoff is back from Antarctica! A note from David
29:10 Ben’s talks resilience at the TacMed Summit
31:00 Then more resilience for a pastoral company
33:00 Mark Wales’s book is coming out…… soon to hit the shelves
34:15 Listener feedback… and General Jim Molan and his next battle
38:40 The Unforgiving60 is ranked in the top few percent of 2m+ podcasts…. our thoughts
42:05 ANZAC Day 2021… and beyond!
Music
The Externals … Available on Spotify
Thursday May 06, 2021
Thursday May 06, 2021
Former UK SAS operator, Mark ‘Billy’ Billingham grew up on tough council estate in Birmingham. Leaving school at eleven, the threat of juvenile detention hanging over his head, he was running with gangs, and almost being killed in a knife fight at 15 eventually led to Billy discovering the British Armed Forces at sixteen. Billy spent 8 years in the UK Parachute Regiment in 1983 and served until 1991 before doing the UK SAS selection course and successful joining the Regiment as a Mountain Troop specialist. He subsequently saw service in Iraq, Afghanistan, South America and Africa as well as hostage rescue operations. After his career in the SAS Billy worked as a bodyguard for the world's biggest A-listers including being a permanent bodyguard for years with Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie and their six children. Billy then transitioned onto the other side of the camera including as a co-host of the television shows SAS UK and SAS Australia.
We talk growing up and into the military and then in detail talking about Billy’s experience on the UK SAS selection course. Then time in the unit….. and beyond. We talk about techniques for controlling fear. Billy also shares anecdotes as a bodyguard and of course his experience on the TV set of the reality shows of SAS UK and SAS Australia.
In 2010, Billy deployed to Haiti to help after a devastating earthquake destroyed the country. He lived and worked in Haïti for 3 years in an effort to help rebuild the country and continues to support Haïti as an ambassador to the charity REBUILD. REBUILD provides education and job training to the most vulnerable.
* Note: DS = Directing Staff = the instructors on a selection course.
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
03:40 Billy’s Peaky Blinders comparison….. growing up hard in Birmingham
10:50 Purpose and identity… Billy’s parallel moment with Australia’s VC winners… off the street and into the UK’s Parachute Regiment
14:00 About the Parachute Regiment and the genesis of Billy wanting to do the UK 22 SAS Selection Course.
16:50 Into SAS Selection….. the endearing memories.
18:00 What happens to the fit good looking dudes on Selection (*considering the three of us it makes sense)…. Candidate wastage on selection.
21:00 Jungle phase of SAS Selection… and Billy’s feeling at the end of selection
25:10 No feedback- the challenge of a lack of feedback on SAS selection
30:30 Billy on controlling fear
36:50 The fondest memories from the SAS. Lessons learned.
41:20 Billy moves into security and bodyguarding roles. Why Hulk Hogan needs a bodyguard.
44:00 Would Billy want to change places with an A-lister?
48:00 How did Billy keep the personal relationship from the professional relationship- balance.
51:30 How did SAS UK and SAS Australia come about…. and how closely does it resemble SAS selection?
58:00 About being persona non grata (PNG).
1:04:00 Billy’s book ‘The Hard Way’
1:06:00 Billy’s upcoming speaking tour
1:08:00 What does ‘Always a little further’ mean to Billy
More ……
Get in touch with us at debrief@unforgiving60.com
Social Media (Instagram, Twitter, Instagram) @Unforgiving60
External Links
https://www.markbillybillingham.com/about
REBUILD globally (Haiti charity)
Music
As always thanks to The Externals – music available on Spotify
Thursday Apr 08, 2021
Thursday Apr 08, 2021
Ben first met Lee Goddard on the high seas, chasing North Korean drug smugglers. Tim’s history with Lee goes back a bit further – to his very first days in the military as a young cadet at the Australian Defence Force Academy, where Lee was the Academy Cadet Captain.
Since graduating from ADFA, Lee has excelled in pretty much endeavour he has turned his hand to, from crewing the tall ship, The Young Endeavour, through to command of warships on operations in places like the South China Sea and the Persian Gulf, and then to running the entire Maritime Border Command.
After 34 years in the Royal Australian Navy, Lee concluded his fulltime military service as a rear admiral and has now transitioned out of the military and is working within Andrew Forrest’s Minderoo Foundation.
We talk life onboard a Navy warship and leadership challenges as well as 'pranging' a ship.
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
05:15 Lee’s early life and inspiration to join the Navy – including this stirring recruiting commercial!
08:00 Ben asks the dumb question – does Lee get seasick?! (Spoiler alert – Ben does)
09:40 What has Lee been able to take from his military service and apply in his current role?
12:00 Lee’s favourite ‘Navy moments’...
16:00 ...including going from looking in awe at the Captain of a ship – to being one!
17:30 Lee’s time on the Young Endeavour, including reflections on the amazing young Australians he worked with, and a number of serious incidents
23:45 What’s life like on board a warship?
26:30 The attachment that crews get to their ships
28:45 Lee’s recollection of the Pong Su boarding – from the bridge as XO of the HMAS Stuart
34:00 One of Lee’s more interesting jobs as ship’s XO – hotel manager!
37:00 Lee’s command of the HMAS Parramatta and winning the Duke of Gloucester Cup for the best performing ship – literally, the ‘Pride of the Fleet!’
40:45 Lee’s reflections on ‘the other side of Lake Burley-Griffin’ – his time within the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet
43:10 Lee then served as Commander of Maritime Border Command and Operation Sovereign Borders
46:50 The most important question Ben can think of – has Lee ever crashed a ship?! Including Lee’s reflections of the pressure of trying to reverse parallel park a warship in Sydney Harbour!
49:00 Lee’s post-military role with the Minderoo Foundation, including his role in addressing community resilience against natural disasters
54:00 What makes a resilient community? Minderoo’s perspective
57:45 What is Lee most proud of? In short, not what he achieved, but how he achieved it
Email us at debrief@unforgiving60.com
Social Media (Instagram, Twitter & LinkedIn): @Unforgiving60
External Links
Music
The Externals – available on Spotify
Ben Frichot - available on Spotify
Mitchell Martin - available on Spotify
Thursday Apr 01, 2021
Thursday Apr 01, 2021
The very funny 6 foot 7 Simon Eastaugh knows Australian Football from both on field and off field vantage points. He was drafted from his Dad’s farm in rural Victoria to Richmond at the age of 16. He played professional football for three different AFL clubs for over a decade and then transitioned from the field into the coaches box. Simon was ruck and development coach for the West Coast Eagles from 2010 to 2013 and coached Dean Cox and Nic Naitanui with both players taking out All-Australian honours during that time. Simon is now an Assistant Coach with the Dockers with a massive portfolio.
We talk about the challenges of AFL football (then and now), as well as leadership from the field to the coaches box- who leads?
Could military tactical operations centre thinking be applied into coaches boxes?
What are the habits of the most elite footballers and what is at the core of resilience?
Plus, Simon’s predictions for the 2021 AFL season.
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
05:00 Tim’s predictable dumb joke about elite footballers
05:40 Simon’s backstory on a famer in Shepparton in country Victoria
09:30 A secret about Simon’s ‘other sport’
10:30 Getting drafted…. what it looked like in 1989
12:30 Simon’s in the club…. But getting injured- about setbacks and overcoming them
13:45 Simon enters coaching…. in a less conventional way
15:50 About goals and focus
18:00 Simon’s goalkicking statistics….. and talking about Gary O’Donnell in Bali, but also his discipline and standards on the football field
21:00 Physicality in football- has it changed?
24:10 John Worsfold as a coach
25:00 What makes a high performance football team (Simon) and what makes a high performance military team (Ben)
31:45 What are the habits of the elite-elite?
35:00 Dealing with adversity- talent v hard work
40:00 If military thinking was applied in the coaches box…. would it be different?
42:40 Who leads on game day?
44:45 Is football embracing adaptive leadership?
46:30 Ben gives the ‘coaches box view’ for military operations
49:00 Modern day football… and explaining it to non Australians!
50:00 Do footballers need more than football?
53:30 Simon’s predictions for the 2021 AFL Season
Email us at debrief@unforgiving60.com
Social Media (Instagram, Twitter) @Unforgiving60
External Links
Music
The Externals – available on Spotify
Thursday Mar 25, 2021
Thursday Mar 25, 2021
Season 3!?! > How did that happen?! These guys should have been sacked!
***
The first RV of the third season! And what a cracking season opener – the boys look back with fondness on the season’s start, and in particular the interview with comedian Mick Neven, Senator Jacqui Lambie, Iceman David Knoff and Chief Push-up Officer Nick Hudson, before turning their attention to listener feedback – and some new music!
As always, please let us know what you think. We’d love to hear from you – please email debrief@unforgiving60.com.
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
01:20 Mick Nevin – our traditional season opener (based on two occurrences!)(After all .... two data points make a trend!)
02:30 Extraversion – more to it than just being the life of the party
05:00 Ben and Tim reflect on experiences with bullying in their school years
09:20 Reflections on the Jacqui Lambie episode – passion and politics
13:20 From Tasmania with Jacqui – even further south! To Davis Station, Antarctica – reflections on our discussion with David Knoff
14:45 Leadership on the ice…how to lead a team that you can never get away from!
16:20 Leadership lessons from picking up brass after a range practice
19:25 Nick Hudson – owner of the best business title ever, hands down
21:50 Overview of the Push-Up Challenge – and how to get involved (including by clicking here!)
24:50 U60 alum Mark Wales – and his new book Survivor, available now for pre-order – click here!
29:50 Listener feedback
32:40 …including some awesome new music from Ben Frichot
34:20 Some listener feedback (and coffee beans!) from the amazing team at Beraldo coffee
Music
The Externals … Available on Spotify
Atlas Chasers…..Available on Spotify
Ben Frichot…..Available on Spotify
Thursday Mar 04, 2021
Thursday Mar 04, 2021
Nick Hudson has the world’s coolest job title – Chief of Push-ups. As the originator and driving force behind the Push-up Challenge, Nick has raised millions of dollars in just a few short years to assist research and support into depression. The genesis of this amazing endeavour comes from Nick’s own experience, both through his family and his personal exposure to mental health challenges, brought on in part as a result of undergoing open heart surgery. In this episode, Nick tells us his story and how he was able to harness his experiences to create the Push-up Challenge and develop it into what it has since become. Along the way, we learn a little more about depression, a lot more about the Ross Procedure, and we even find out Tim’s perfect job title!
****
[Trigger warning- we discuss depression and mental health in this episode]
****
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
04:00 Nick’s excellent job title…
04:25 …and what Tim’s job title should be
05:00 Nick’s background and what got him to the point where he decided to do push-ups and raise money for charity – including open heart surgery at the age of four
05:40 Nick’s first encounters with depression
10:00 What is depression? (Hint: it’s not just about ‘being sad’)
15:10 Why is there such a stigma associated with depression and mental illness?
19:50 One technique to broach the subject with a friend who you think might be experiencing depression – the ‘accidental chat’
21:45 So – how can push-ups help?!
22:00 The benefits of ‘relentlessly competitive mates’
24:00 A $200 app – the start of the Push-up Challenge platform
26:45 2018 – 1 million push-ups completed, and $50,000 raised!
28:00 ..and then – a personal health scare
32:00 The terrifying diagnosis. And the second opinion. And the third opinion (Hint: the diagnosis didn’t get better!)
33:30 Slipping into depression
34:30 What does depression feel like?
36:45 You know you’ve hit rock bottom when even The Bachelor doesn’t bring you joy!
38:15 How Nick realised that he was suffering from depression
39:20 What was worse – open heart surgery or depression?!
40:45 The Ross Procedure – amazing
41:45 Tim learns that the ‘Iron Man’ nuclear heart replacement option isn’t a real thing
51:30 Recovery – and taking the Push-up Challenge to the next level
52:35 2019 – almost 50,000 participants and $2.5m raised!
53:45 The Push-up Challenge target concepts explained
55:15 2020 - $5.1m raised! And the impacts (positive and negative) of COVID on the challenge
57:30 The 2021 Challenge – 3,318 push-ups – one for every person who died by suicide in Australia in 2019
58:00 How to participate in the challenge – individually, as a team – and you don’t even have to do push-ups!
1:00:00 Nick’s plans and goals for the Challenge in 2021
1:01:30 How you can find out more and participate in the 2021 Push-up Challenge
External Links
- The Push-Up Challenge
- If you need help in this area, some great resources (within Australia) include Beyond Blue, Lifeline, Kids Helpline and Crime Stoppers
Music
The Externals – available on Spotify
Atlas Chasers – available on Spotify
Mitchell Martin- available on Spotify
Thursday Feb 25, 2021
Thursday Feb 25, 2021
What’s leadership like in sub-zero temperatures with busy programmes, limited infrastructure, 1 minute showers, 1 hour of sunlight a day and surrounded by the same small group of people for over 400 days?
Well, David Knoff knows the answers!
David is the Station Leader at Australia’s Davis Station in Antarctica. Davis Station is the most southerly Australian Antarctic station. It is situated edge of the Vestfold Hills, on the Ingrid Christensen Coast of Princess Elizabeth Land. The station is about 20 km from the edge of the continental ice sheet. The team at the station ranges from 100 in the summer to a wintering team of <30.
In this episode we talk about David’s first careers in the military and foreign affairs and how that prepared him to lead in the Australian Antarctic Division. What leadership challenges exist in such a remote location. Time on the ice and what about fraternisation and alcohol?
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
- 03:15 Completely unnecessary preamble!
- 04:25 Finally, Ben and Tim get started with David.
- 08:15 How did David find transition from the military and freight affairs into Australian Antarctic Division.
- 10:45 Selection for a Station Leader- info here .
- 15:00 How do you get separation as a leader? The challenges.
- 18:05 World War Z and COVID-19. The perspective from Antarctica.
- 24:05 ‘Making it happen’… when you don’t have much.
- 25:30 What’s a normal day look like?
- 28:00 Leadership pressures…. And how to deal with proximity challenges
- 32:30 Staff and the science programs
- 35:30 Talking climate change…. What is Dave seeing?
- 37:45 Water problems at Davis Station
- 41:45 How is the bar scene at Davis?
- 44:00 What about when things go wrong? Incident management.
- 47:15 Dave’s perspective on individual resilience and a leaders contribution.
- 50:25 Advice for people leading teams in remote areas.
- 52:40 What sort of people should apply for a job on Antarctica?
- 57:20 When you get home…..
- 1:00:00 Music recorded live in Afghanistan featuring the SAS band Tongue Charge with Angry Anderson on backup vocals
More on Davis Station here .
More on Australian Antarctic Division (AAD) here .
AAD jobs information here.
Music
Thank you to all of our friends providing music to us including from:
- The Externals - available here on Spotify.
- Tongue Charge (with Angry Anderson).
More
Contact Us
Thursday Feb 18, 2021
Thursday Feb 18, 2021
We would proffer that Jacqui Lambie is the most passionate politician in the Australian political system. From veterans affairs to the war on drugs to foreign policy she speaks with both passion and conviction.
She is arguably also currently the most controversial politician in Australian political system.
With a difficult upbringing, we talk about Jacqui’s early brush(es) with the law and her ten years in the military. Being pregnant through recruit training to promotion and demotion in uniform; and how that time and experiences shaped her strength and resolve into politics.
Her motivation to get into politics…. and the subsequent struggle to get there. The involvement of Clive Palmer and her relationship with him and her perspectives on the Australian Political system.
We also talk about the Brereton Report - on alleged war crimes in Afghanistan and Jacqui’s views on that and the absence of senior leadership. Her article is well worth reading: ‘No Appetite for Digger Witch-hunt’.
More on Jacqui here: https://www.senatorlambie.com.au
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
- 03:20 Jacqui gets on the front foot from the start of the episode!
- 04:05 Jacqui’s upbringing in Devonport.
- 05:00 Unpopular with the police!
- 07:00 Into the Army…. and abandoned by her mates at the recruiting office.
- 10:50 What Jacqui took from the Army… that has stood her in good stead.
- 16:10 What attracted Jacqui into politics.
- 17:30 Fight Night: Department of Veterans Affairs versus Jacqui Lambie.
- 20:20 Transition into politics and Jacqui’s time with Clive Palmer.
- 23:30 Dual citizenship incident.
- 26:20 More on the polarizing Clive Palmer.
- 30:00 What’s different between the political parties?
- 35:20 Where do Jacqui’s views come from.
- 37:30 If Jacqui was a bottle of Pinot!
- 39:00 The Brereton Report: ‘No Appetite for Digger Witch-hunt’- Jacqui.
- 42:00 ‘A gutful’ of the generals and the constantly changing trajectory of purpose in Afghanistan since 2001/2.
- 43:00 What about political leadership and responsibility on the issue in Afghanistan.
- 46:00 Back to the Generals….. ‘What did you do?’.
- 48:55 On the issue of veterans suicide….. and some solution sets.
- 53:10 Talking the war on drugs…. And Jacqui’s son’s battle.
- 55:50 What does Jacqui do for herself.
Music
Thank you to all of our friends providing music to us including from:
- The Externals - available here on Spotify.
- Nik Kali - available here on Spotify
- Mitchell Martin - available here on Spotify
More
Contact Us
Thursday Feb 11, 2021
Thursday Feb 11, 2021
Launching Season 3, Comedian Mick Neven is back! After conquering zombie apocalypses using SAS tactics with Ben and Tim nearly exactly 12 months ago, Mick is back- as a Melon Head!
We talk about what is off limits, being a Melon Head, living in self isolation, about Mick being bullied, how to write gags, stagecraft and the unwritten rules of comedians.
Get your laughing gear around this..... Enjoy!
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
- 03:30 Mick’s statistics on the Unforgiving60 podcast.
- 06:10 2020- The Year in Review for Mick (and Comedians).
- 07:20 Is anything off limits to Mick in his comedy?
- 08:30 Why Melon Head? The name…. and the melon!
- 10:45 Diameters of heads …. and biceps!
- 12:15 Self isolation for a comedic runner.
- 16:30 Running pace for Mick (and Ben)… and 24 hours straight of comedy.
- 23:45 Themes for the new show.
- 25:30 There are positives from COVID-19…. Mick’s view on what one of them is.
- 31:00 Are comedians naturally extroverts? Stage personas…. ‘finding your voice’.
- 33:33 Why don’t great jokes resonate sometimes?
- 38:25 How Mick remembers names and continually brings things back to his audience.
- 40:25 How to craft a joke.
- 42:30 Can you just sit down and write a joke?
- 45:00 Is it possible to move jokes in and out of comedy shows? And what variation on shows?
- 49:25 Is Mick’s house always funny?
- 51:40 Could Mick make Ben & Tim funny?
- 53:40 The unwritten rules of comedy.
- 57:00 Mick’s words of advice to the world.
Music.
Music from The Externals is available on Spotify.
More
Contact Us