The Unforgiving60
Special Episode- Embrace the Virus! Leading Through COVID-19.

Special Episode- Embrace the Virus! Leading Through COVID-19.

March 30, 2020

The COVID-19 Special Edition for Leaders. Ben and Tim reflect on the emerging global pandemic and discuss how leadership and decision-making frameworks can be applied to this situation to make some sense of the craziness going on around us. Sharing observations from contemporary business responses to the COVID-19 impacts, they take listeners through the five key lessons outline in their recent ‘Embrace the Virus’ thought leadership paper.



1:49           A great overview on the Cynefin framework from Dave Snowden and Mary Boone can be found here

4:30           ‘Probe-Sense-Respond’ methodology for complex environments, and its application to the COVID-19 situation

5:30           Chaotic environments – the pandemic is definitely showing elements of chaos

6:10           Observed limitations of many business continuity plans in the COVID-19 environment

8:20           The requirement for both immediate and longer-term planning

10:15         ‘Embrace the Virus’ can be read in full here

11:00         Leadership presence during the pandemic

11:15         Case study in leadership presence during crisis – Toll vs Norsk Hydro

16:20         Discussion on the key leadership elements we believe are crucial for success during the pandemic

17:35         The importance of record- and logkeeping

18:45         Strong and decisive – BUT not autocratic and nasty!

19:30         Empathy – for our staff….

20:15         ….and ourselves!

20:50         Balconies and dancefloors – the exhausting, but necessary, requirement for leaders to balance their time between the two

23:10         Emotional regulation, vulnerability, transparency and authenticity

25:00         The importance of communication – in, out, up and down!

25:45         Message transmitted does not necessarily mean message received

26:30         Mission Command – centralise your intent, decentralise your execution

28:15         No crisis without opportunity!         


** Final song, Dim the Lights by Mitchell Martin 



Mettle Thought Leadership on COVID:


Contact Us




The Externals …. Available on Spotify

Mitchell Martin …. Available on Spotify

S2E6- Mitchell Martin – The Next Ed Sheeran! But Better(er)

S2E6- Mitchell Martin – The Next Ed Sheeran! But Better(er)

March 26, 2020

Today it’s Mitchell Martin’s birthday! Literally! He is 23 years old today …. And he is making music like no one else. And by that, we mean half a million downloads on Spotify for a single song!

We first saw Mitchell at a music festival and followed his gigs over the next three days. We watched him carefully (not creepy- just like SAS guys do when in an observation post!). And found that this incredibly talented guy and his band were super humble.

Not very rock star!

But in this interview … we talk about following your bliss. Playing music and inspirations. And we have a good dose of Mitchell’s music in there too …. there's some stories of persistence and determination. 

And we end with a live acoustic set.

Also we do have the Mitchell and Ben ‘duet’ (... ok ok- apparently it’s called a ‘jam’)... that one is to come.  ;-)

Please pay the  equivalent cost of a cup of coffee to our musicians starting here:






Band Camp:



Contact Us



 By: Mitchell Martin …. Available on Spotify


The Externals …. Available on Spotify


... the world is running out of these good blokes. So few of us left! 

S2E5- Alec Torelli: Life Lessons Learned from High Stakes Poker

S2E5- Alec Torelli: Life Lessons Learned from High Stakes Poker

March 19, 2020

Ever thought that poker was easy, glamorous and all about the money. Well this one is for you!

“This is business …. and this is investing”- Alec

Alec Torelli is a professional high stakes poker player, entrepreneur, and motivational speaker from California. Alec began playing poker in 2004 when he won $12!

It WAS US Dollars though!

At 21, Alec moved to Las Vegas. During his first World Series of Poker (WSOP), he finished 2nd. He then won back-to-back events at the Bellagio. The next summer, he placed 6th in the commemorative 40-year anniversary WSOP event, and then 4th in the World Poker Tour at the Bellagio.

Alec is the founder of 'Conscious Poker', a popular poker training platform. Alec has been spending the last 14 years making decisions for hundreds of thousands of dollars in a single hand. Now we dissect the anatomy of decision making to help others hone the way they make choices.

We talk: the role of luck in life, evaluating risk, maintaining a positive mindset, strengthening mental fortitude, handling adversity and setbacks, managing your bankroll and cultivating self-awareness.

And Alec's power song!? The Gambler perhaps?


 Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

0:00           Cha-ching!

00:30         How it all started

06:30         7 figures up and 7 figures down!

08:20         US rules mean Alec can’t play anywhere but he can in Australia!

10:30         Playing 4 … even 6 .. games at a time!

12:50         ‘Grinding a lot of poker’

15:40         ‘What will you do when you leave school’ – love Dad

16:15         Playing poker recreationally?

18:20         Monikers

21:50         The psychology of poker

24:30         Emotions…. And overcoming them

27:00         Rich amateurs v professionals

30:00         How do you overcome emotion/ and reset!

32:20         How to give advice to yourself

35:15         How to read someone eating broccoli

36:00         ‘Tells’….. and girls in coffee shops!

39:05         Wearing hats, sunglasses and headphones

42:45         Kipling wants to lose everything in one pitch and toss… and Alec’s thoughts!

44:10         Kipling’s point according to Alec.

46:00         Quick Questions/ Quick Answers….

53:40         Alec plays poker with Dan Bilzerian ... and the after party!

56:30         Kenny Rogers and Poker

57:00         Good v great poker players?





Contact Us




 As Always by: The Externals …. Available on Spotify.

S2E4- Mark Wales: SAS Journeyman- Beyond Survivor to Tough Luxury……

S2E4- Mark Wales: SAS Journeyman- Beyond Survivor to Tough Luxury……

March 12, 2020

Mark Wales knows first-hand what happens when a Special Ops combat veteran designs a leather jacket. And also, how to find love on a reality TV show!

He’s a Special Operations Combat veteran. Boxer. CrossFit Regionals athlete. Ivy League MBA graduate.    McKinsey consultant.  Fashion designer. Entrepreneur.  Model.  Reality TV star. Father.  Husband.    

Mark Wales has fit a whole bunch of titles to his name, and he certainly doesn’t appear to be slowing down. 

In this episode, the conversation ranges from the tragic (losing a mate in combat) to the absurd (an inappropriately long discussion on bringing back leather pants). It takes us from Newman to New York; and provides insights working with McKinsey to redesign a cheese packet; and finding love on reality TV. But also, what traits Mark hopes to pass onto his son.  An absolute must-listen episode with an individual who continues to go – always – a little further.


Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

2:42           One of these kids is not like the others….. Ben and Mark talk CrossFit Regionals.  Tim (having never been to Regionals) is unable to contribute meaningfully.

5:35           Mark’s right of reply to being killed off during our Zombie Apocalypse episode with Mick Neven

6:33           Mark’s early years in rural Western Australia

8:10           Ben recalls the pinnacle of his military career – getting a ‘black jibber’ for academics as a cadet at the Australian Defence Force Academy

8:30           Mark’s first field exercise at the Royal Military College Duntroon – in which he accidentally attacks his own troops

9:35           Posted to the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Australian Regiment, in Townsville, Queensland prior to successfully completing SAS selection

10:55         Mark’s strategy to get off the selection course without shame

12:20         Mark’s time in SASR

15:15         Losing a mate in combat – and getting on with leadership while dealing with the impacts

19:15         Ramp ceremonies – farewelling a mate

22:50         Back to the Royal Military College – as an instructor

25:04         The motivation to get out of the Army and do an MBA – at Wharton!

30:40         The genesis of Kill Kapture – tough luxury!

31:40         Cost of goods: $1500.  Sale price:  $1000.  Not the endorsed Wharton pricing strategy

31:55         Coming up with the name “Kill Kapture”

33:40         Building the first jacket in New York’s garment district

35:20         Tough luxury – and taking inspiration from military uniforms

35:55         Out of Wharton and into McKinsey & Co

37:45         Taking on Australian Survivor

38:45         Reality TV – putting military Operational Security to shame!

40:40         Tim throws out some more spurious ‘facts’ (which turn out to be true – John Lapaglia is a medical doctor)

42:35         Celebrity models – former SecDef Jim Matthis in KillKapture

44:45         Seeing (now wife) Samantha Gash for the first time

47:20         Coming off the island – and catching back up with Sam

48:05         Now  - and to the future.  Corporate speaking roles and a new product launch

50:10         Tim and Ben reflect on their very brief period as watch brand ambassadors

50:55         The future of Kill Kapture

52:55         ….which may or may not include leather pants…..

53:40         Mark on leadership, resilience, PTSD – and opening up a little through his corporate speaking roles

56:05         Mark’s daily routine – doing the basics well

57:15         On fatherhood

1:01:20     Quick Question / Quick Answers – on luck, fashion, power songs and Mark’s coolest Army moments

1:05:45     The Cormack McCarthy quote Mark refers to: ‘“War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner” (from Blood Meridian)




Mark’s Corporate Speaking profile

Mark’s Survivor page


Contact Us






By: The Externals …. Available on Spotify

S2E3 – Placing Explosive Charges on Glass Ceilings - Monika Georgieva

S2E3 – Placing Explosive Charges on Glass Ceilings - Monika Georgieva

March 6, 2020

Monika Georgieva was the first female to attempt Australian SAS selection …. twice! Monika was also Australia’s first female Infantry Officer, having commanded a Rifle Platoon and a Reconnaissance/ Sniper Platoon.

And before we start (or continue) to stereotype. Monika is around 5 foot 4 and has been 56kg at her heaviest! She has been called a ‘little girl’- but you’ll see that she is far from that!

What if we told you that being first wasn't important to her. She just 'pursues her bliss' (Ref: Greg Wallace episode).

Monika talks us through her amazing life – from gunfights in Bulgarian nightclubs, through boarding school in Scotland, to her ground-breaking military career and beyond.  In the process, she speaks to her motivational techniques, her (strange!) relationship with pain and how breaking paradigms is far less important to her than the simple act of going – always – a little further.


Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

03:18     The 98 Gym Podcast with Monika – a must-listen!

03:30     Mon’s early childhood in Bulgaria

04:26     UK Army recruiting – how to lose applicants!

06:40     First combat experience.  Age:8.  Location: Bulgarian Nightclub

08:47     Ben speaks on ‘complexiness’.  It’s a technical term…

09:40     Boarding school in Scotland

11:50     Tough love from Mon’s parents

14:00     To Canberra, where Mon recalls her Mooseheads years…

15:45     Life lessons from working in a pub

17:05     Mon’s time at the Royal Military College, Duntroon

18:20     Graduation to Artillery Corps as one of the first female officers – and more recruiting lies!

19:15     Corps transfer to logistics and a posting to Townsville

19:30     ….and straight onto Accelerated Infantry Training and Commando Selection

21:00     Physical preparation for selection

21:31     Mon’s bête noire – the 3.2km run!

24:20     The pressure of being the first – Imposter Syndrome and self-doubt

28:45     Tim’s single piece of advice for SAS selection

30:15     Ben and Tim struggle with maths.  Again.

32:30     Working with Kev Toonen to prepare for the second SAS selection course attempt

33:50     Extrinsic and intrinsic motivation for the course

34:20     Mon’s relationship with pain…and an out of body experience!

36:30     Tara Mohr and the two Hebrew words for fear

39:00     Breaking paradigms and glass ceilings (….is not something Mon cares about)

41:00     On being the first female infantry officer in the Australian Army

45:20     The importance of authenticity as a leader

50:30     Mon on leadership presence – ‘always own the ground you’re standing on’

51:42     Amy Cuddy on body language and power poses


Contact Us



 By: The Externals…. Available on Spotify




S2E2- Row, Row, Row Your Boat, Gently Across the Pacific! - Heather Taylor

S2E2- Row, Row, Row Your Boat, Gently Across the Pacific! - Heather Taylor

February 28, 2020

Heather Taylor, our guest this week, is going a whole lot further – 4000km further to be precise! And in a rowboat! Heather is about to row from California to Hawaii and join only a handful of other humans who have made this incredible trek solo.  On the way, she will need to be prepared to face extremes of weather, the ever-present threat of bigger ships and perhaps even a dolphin stampede! 

Heather speaks to Tim and Ben about her boat, her kit, her preparation and how she finds inspiration and motivation to keep going through the countless hours alone, including through the power of 120 hours of Harry Potter audiobooks! And Season 1 of the Unforgiving60 podcast of course ;-)


Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

03:23     Heather’s first experience with rowing in high school in Canada

06:26     Making the decision to go solo

07:40     Risk assessing a row across the Pacific Oceans!

08:40     Tim’s assessment of the likelihood of an incident during the row – ‘Extreme’!

10:00     Some statistics on the row Heather is about to attempt

11:10     A two-week sprint out of California

12:45     Current records for the row

13:50     Heather’s daily routine during the row

15:40     What do you do for 100-odd days in the middle of the ocean?

16:00     Tim and Ben offer some ideas of audiobooks not to take on the trip

16:30     Heather describes her boat, facilities, rations and equipment

20:20     First aid kit and procedures

21:30     Navigation – primary and old-school backup!

22:00     Emergency procedures – and avoiding big ships

24:50     Anticipated wildlife encounters – watch out for the dolphin stampede!

25:30     Inside Heather’s head – the mental side of the row

27:30     Motivational techniques for going ‘a little further’ – and the importance of being kind to yourself

29:45     The power of faith for Heather

30:40     Funding the voyage

33:30     Heather’s literary inspirations

34:00     Heather’s accidentally dark high school poetry

35:00     Quick questions and quick answers (full disclosure – neither the questions or answers are quick!)

36:10     Heather’s fantastic distinction between happiness, joy and contentment

38:50     How to find out more about – and support! – Heather’s row

39:30     Heather’s fundraising partners



Heather’s website –  


Contact Us:



Call to Arms:

** If you are a charity or an emergency services or veteran owned small business (or know one!) don't forget to get in touch- we'd love to recognise your hard work and selflessness. 


S2E1- SAS Tactics to Fight the Apocalypse - with Mick Neven from the Apocalypse Comedy Podcast

S2E1- SAS Tactics to Fight the Apocalypse - with Mick Neven from the Apocalypse Comedy Podcast

February 20, 2020

It's the year 2100. How would SAS inspired tactics fight the Zombie Apocalypse? Mick Neven is 120 years old but still a comedic legend. He loves a good apocalypse and has a comedy show to prove it!

Zombies are descending. What's YOUR life choice!?!?


Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

  • 0:30. The Situation in the year 2100
  • 5:05. Welcome Mick Neven – Genius Mind & 'What do you have'?
  • 7:20. When running from the tiger when do you rest?
  • 8:30. From your childhood what do you bring?
  • 9:00. Ben and Tim’s biological relationship
  • 09:30. Mark Wales .... from Survivor....  Sux!
  • 12:20. Ben and Tim’s early story
  • 14:00. Talking SAS Selection
  • 20:15. Would you have ‘them’ in your workforce?
  • 22:15. Why Mick is in elite company!
  • 24:25. How Comedians are funny- from Mick (not Ben and Tim!).
  • 31:00. Australian v UK Comedy demand.
  • 42:00. Ben wants high tech stuff in the Zombie Apocalypse!
  • 44:30. Plans and the Zombies! Mick is sceptical!
  • 47:45. Mick’s skills are critical!!!!
  • 52:00. Mick thinks Ben and Tim can’t unite anyone!
  • 52:40. Cray fisherman
  • 56:45. What skills do we need in the apocalypse?
  • 58:00. Obstacle Planning
  • 1:04:00 Park runners we need you!!!
  • 1:05:30 Tim’s obstacle plan- “The Molasses Pit”
  • 1:06:00 How to kill with combine harvesters.,
  • 1:08:30 Tim takes a selfie on the edge of - “The Molasses Pit”. Doesn’t end well.
  • 1:11:30 Designing a “The Molasses Pit”.
  • 1:12:00 Farewells and pleasantries!



NEW Music from The Externals in this Episode.

Music from The Externals is available on Spotify.



Contact Us 

@RV14 - The Season 1 Finale! On Heard Island & the last 12 months, the co-host’s Performance Appraisal Report & Season 2 planning

@RV14 - The Season 1 Finale! On Heard Island & the last 12 months, the co-host’s Performance Appraisal Report & Season 2 planning

January 24, 2020

It's the anniversary of Season 1 and the finale to boot.... and we didn't ever think we would come this far with this (any!?) trajectory.

We reflect on the Heard Island episode.

Then the last 12 months- Just once over lightly!

And then.... Ben gets his Performance Appraisal Report as a co-host.

Finally..... find out how you can be involved with us as part of our 'Ambassadors and Allies' Programs.

Ciao to Season 1! We loved every minute .....  thanks for joining us on this crazy ride.


Contact Us:


Music: As always by The Externals..... find them on Spotify

** While you are there check out the Unforgiving60 playlist on Spotify!


S1E34- Climbing Active Volcanos in the Sub Antarctic - A Unique SAS Mission

S1E34- Climbing Active Volcanos in the Sub Antarctic - A Unique SAS Mission

January 6, 2020

20 years ago, a team of four Australian SAS guys, attempted to be the third climbing party ever to summit Mawson’s Peak, otherwise known as Big Ben - Australia’s only active volcano on the sub Antarctic Heard Island- 3,500 south-west of Australia. 20 years later we got the climbing party back together to make this episode. Stu and Matt are still serving SAS officers and Robb Clifton is now in a senior role at Australian Antarctic Division.

In 1998-99, the SAS had supported anti-poaching activities in the Southern Ocean. As a result, Austral Fisheries were sympathetic to taking an SAS team south to Heard Island. 

The team put ashore at Atlas Cove on the 1st of January 2000 after nearly a month at sea on the 88 metre Fishing Trawler, SOUTHERN CHAMPION. The team worked in the Ship’s fish factory through the incredibly challenging Southern Ocean.

On the very first night at Heard Island the team realised how difficult this was going to be …. And it only got worse! They got a lot of things terribly wrong. And Mother Nature was never going to be helpful.

But sometimes fate does (and will) smile.

It’s a great story of adventure. Facing challenges and accepting fate. Homicidal desires to summit but the need to calculate the risks.

And of course, the indefatigable and enduring nature of mateship.


Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

  • 3:50   The Team
  • 5:15   About Heard Island
  • 8:30   What is at Heard Island
  • 11:15  The mad idea to climb an active volcano on a sub-Antarctic Island!?
  • 13:00  How do you get there?
  • 14:10  How did the voyage start…. of course, with logistics challenges!
  • 15:45  The voyage south! Working for passage!
  • 18:15  Into the Southern Ocean
  • 20:45  SAS Water Operators and sea sickness!
  • 21:30  Patagonian toothfish
  • 24:30  Fishing in the Southern Ocean
  • 25:45  The morning of departure to Heard Island
  • 29:05  Environmental guidelines and restrictions
  • 30:40  Night 1 and the first BIG problem
  • 32:15  Naively selecting the worst route up the mountain
  • 33:15  Let’s get climbing….
  • 39:00  Even more difficulties above Camp 1
  • 40:19  The homicidal nature of climbing…. And even more problems.
  • 42:00  ‘The most vivid moments are the hard bits’.
  • 42:50  Failed summit attempt …. And facing (accepting) death
  • 45:00  It just gets worse. No food, fuel or water, two broken tents and only three sleeping bags.
  • 47:20  Summit Day
  • 50:45  Summit reflections- Robb and Matt
  • 55:00  The day after
  • 58:55  Reflections - 20 years ago about the Heard Island Expedition


More About Heard Island



More About Fishing in the Southern Ocean




As always music by The Externals. Hear more of The Externals on Spotify.



Contact Us

Also check out the Unforgiving60 playlist on Spotify. A collection of our guests 'power songs' :

@RV13- On Jimmy McKeown, Melina Mellino, Chris Huet and our Recommended Reading List

@RV13- On Jimmy McKeown, Melina Mellino, Chris Huet and our Recommended Reading List

December 27, 2019

Welcome to RV13. We dissect our episodes with the young whippersnapper Jimmy McKeown- Australian Master Distiller of the Year, trail running with Melina Mellino and passion & poetry with Chris Huet.

We also talk Ben’s work of art in the Australian War Memorial.

Listener feedback is in here too. And some wider Season 2 announcements for 2020.

And we finish off with our suggested reading list.  Pick up a book and do some reading!



1:30     Jimmy McKeown. Australian Master Distiller of the Year. Modesty and humilty

3:00     Genesis of the Whippersnapper logo

3:50     Differentiation

7:50     Melina Mellino …. And about being the energy in the room

11:00   Silent Sundays

13:05   Toe shoes, lycra, Lululemon, singlet, visors and covering up

14:40   Chris Huet, precision and passion….. through poetry

17:50   Strength in words

19:00   Is poetry for me?

20:50   Southern Comfort in Woolsheds

23:10   Ben’s challenge to Tim for 2020

23:46   About a challenge and grinding away

25:48   Ben’s Highly Commended Artwork in the Australian War Memorial…. We talk about where it is and how it came about

28:10   What inspired Ben’s painting in the War Memorial

30:02   The Unforgiving60 Playlist! How did it come about?

32:25   Listener feedback and comments     

34:33   Feedback on ‘Piss taking’

35:40   Questions from Zagreb, Croatia. And someone is indeed reading the show notes!

37:20   A note from Wandering Distillery

37:47   Feedback from Kirsty. A request to discuss our favourite books.

38:50   The start of Ben and Tim’s Recommended Reading List……







Music as always by The Externals. Find out more about The Externals on Spotify



The Unforgiving60 Playlist also available for free on Spotify. A collection of power songs: