The Unforgiving60
S2E21b – Wayne Jones: ex SAS Sky God and Rock Star turned ASX CEO

S2E21b – Wayne Jones: ex SAS Sky God and Rock Star turned ASX CEO

September 10, 2020

Part B of our special double episode with Wayne Jones. Wayne picks up where we left off last week by talking about his transition out of the military… and into life as a CEO of the ASX listed iFly Australia. Taking a lot of risks and being supported by mentors including Steve Baxter… this is the story.


Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

01:45   Intro from Tongue Charge

02:00   About the song ‘Kelly’s Last Dance … and then we play some of it.

03:50   The song ‘One Crowded Hour’, Wayne could never remember the song … and then we play some of it too.

05:45   Wayne describes the genesis of his current role as CEO of a listed company running indoor skydiving wind tunnels

08:10   Walking footpaths, belting down doors and googling ‘what is a signature block?’

12:00   After the capital raise…. time to make an indoor skydiving facility.

15:15   What is a wind tunnel?

17:42   How close is indoor skydiving to the real thing?

19:00   Jumping with weird and wonderful stuff.

21:00   Leadership differences: SAS to ASX.

24:58   The theatre of leadership: in an ASX Co.

26:30   The future of simulation and growth.

31:20   Talking resilience.

34:27   Ego and feelings.

36:30   Good habits and routine- what does Wayne do?

39:38   Breathing…. Relaxing techniques?

41:26   What’s next and settling down….. Wayne’s thoughts.


External Links

  • Wayne’s company iFLY Australia – Go get involved with some indoor freefall!



Tongue Charge!  Recorded in various locations from Cottesloe Beach to Uruzgan Province



Get in touch with us:

S2E21a- Wayne Jones: ex SAS Sky God and Rockstar turned ASX CEO

S2E21a- Wayne Jones: ex SAS Sky God and Rockstar turned ASX CEO

September 4, 2020

A former SAS soldier, many people would now know Wayne Jones as the co-founder, CEO and Director of the Indoor Skydive Australia Group, an ASX listed company operating wind tunnels throughout Australia and the near region.  However, prior to his success in business, Wayne honed his freefall skills within the SAS Regiment, including leading the first operational military freefall mission in the history of the Australian Army.

In this special double episode, Wayne talks to Ben and Tim about his experiences inside and outside of uniform.  In this first installment, Wayne shares a little about his background in rural South Australia and his early years in the Army, including his harrowing deployment to Rwanda during which his section witnessed the atrocities of the infamous Kibeho massacre. 

Wayne then reveals his SAS Selection Course secrets and describes his time within the Unit, and his multiple operational deployments, including to Iraq with the UK Special Forces in 2006. 

Finally, Wayne share some insights into his career as a rock god, including what it’s like to have Angry Anderson sing backup for you!

Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

03:35   Wayne’s childhood – and why growing up in small town in rural South Australia can serve as a great incentive to join the Army!

06:30   Recruit training at Kapooka, then infantry training at Singleton, graduating on his 18th birthday and posting up to the 2nd Battalion….

08:15   …and into Rwanda, on his first deployment

10:30   The threat – and how confused the landscape was at that time in Rwanda.  Simmering tension, hugely outnumbered – and no real chance of back-up

12:45   Wayne’s experiences at the Kibeho IDP (internally displaced personnel) camp – one of the worst massacres in recent history

16:45   The confusion of being witness to a full-scale infantry battalion assault….onto an unarmed crowd

21:50   Going back in the next day…and the importance of mateship in getting you through a situation like that

23:00   Processing atrocity – how Wayne has dealt with everything he saw at Kibeho

26:00   Musical Interlude!  Ben and Wayne murdering the classic James song Laid in a B-hut in Afghanistan, circa 2008.  It’s amazing the sound quality you can get recording Afghan-made nylon string guitars in a bomb-proof shipping container on an iPhone…

27:00   Back from Rwanda….and onto SAS selection.  Fun Fact:  Wayne was on the same selection course as F18 pilot Tim Robertson – the chronic overachiever we interviewed way back in season one!

31:00   Extrinsic motivators – after all we’ve said in previous episodes, turns out they work!

32:30   Wayne’s rules for himself during selection

35:00   Musical Interlude – Kelly’s Last Dance, a Tongue Charge tune that Wayne wrote about Ned Kelly.  Or an ex-girlfriend.  Or an ex-girlfriend that looked like Ned Kelly – we were never sure

35:40   Wayne’s first impression of the SAS regiment

39:00   Leadership in the SAS – and how to broker the distinction between leadership and ‘likership’

43:50   Wayne’s experience on exchange with UK Special Forces in Iraq, 2006

47:50   The genesis of Tongue Charge – SAS band, and The External’s lesser-known (and far less tuneful) little brother. 

50:45   Tongue Charge’s first gig – ‘you suck!’

52:45   …and their best gig, with Angry Anderson on backing vocals

54:30   The significance of Getting Away With It, the awesome James song that Tongue Charge would end every show with

56:00   The devastating loss of Craig ‘Crackers’ Linacre – an absolute legend, and the original Tongue Charge lead singer


External Links

  • Wayne’s company iFLY Australia – get involved with some indoor freefall!



Tongue Charge!  Recorded in various locations from Cottesloe Beach to Uruzgan Province, Afghanistan


S2E20- Understanding Meditation with the Expert- Gary Gorrow

S2E20- Understanding Meditation with the Expert- Gary Gorrow

August 28, 2020

Based in Byron Bay, Gary is one of the world’s leading meditation teachers, with over 15 years of experience.  Gary has given elite persons, actors, personalities and the ‘normal’ amongst us, an ‘edge’ through meditation. His client list includes Jessica Gomes, Jamie Durie, Gemma Ward, Hamish Blake and many many more. More widely Gary has worked with thousands of people from all walks of life and his services are sought after by some of the world’s leading
companies for his innovative meditation and mindfulness programs. He runs retreats, workshops and training Courses around the world.

We talk mindfulness v meditation. How to get into it and sustain it as a daily practice. What about breathing? And drawing value in (and from) your life. We discuss material possessions and the relevance & importance of happiness. Ben also wants to understand more about psychedelics. And Gary explains. We then talk about the importance of a guru and how to find a guru.


Get connecting with your own wisdom…. your own knowing.



Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

  • 04:00   Gary’s background and how he got into meditation.
  • 06:30   What is meditation?
  • 12:00   What is mindfulness?
  • 16:30   How does breath work mitigate stress and marginalise the Amygdala?
  • 20:00   The science of neuroplasticity… habits and how we live.
  • 21:05   Is meditation ‘airy fairy’… what about meditation for blokes? What’s the barriers to entry? Powerhouse humans that meditate.
  • 23:30   What about time to meditate?
  • 28:00   Speaking about material possessions.
  • 31:05   Ben wants to understand more about psychedelics. And Gary explains….
  • 39:45   Sensory deprivation. Does it assist meditation?
  • 41:45   The importance of a ‘guru’ in a person’s transformation- what and why? Gary explains.
  • 44:30   How do you find a guru?
  • 48:00   Graham Hancock's somewhat controversial info is here


More About Garry



The Atlas Chaser.... end song 'Bridges'….. music available on Spotify.


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Disclaimer. The information and advice provided is made available in good faith and is derived from sources believed to be reliable and accurate at the time of release. However, it is not an endorsement or recommendation of any particular practice or method or substance. The information is provided solely on the basis that listeners will be responsible for making their own assessment of the matters discussed herein and are advised to seek their own medical advice and verify all relevant representations, statements and information.


@RV19- On Beth Eggleston, Dr Linda Monshizadeh, Kim Martens & More on the SAS Selection Course

@RV19- On Beth Eggleston, Dr Linda Monshizadeh, Kim Martens & More on the SAS Selection Course

August 20, 2020

In this episode, Ben and Tim reminisce about recent chats with some incredible guests, including humanitarian Beth Eggleston, plastic surgeon Linda Monshizadeh and security guru Kim Martens.  And following those three amazing ladies, they bring another amazing lady, Monika Georgieva, back into the studio to ask some additional questions about the infamous SAS Selection Course, including the highs and lows, intrinsic and extrinsic motivation and self-doubt.  And finally, a whole bunch of outstanding emails, questions and feedback from listeners.


As always, please let us know what you think!  Good, bad or indifferent, we’d love to hear from you – email


Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

01:45          Reflections on Beth Eggleston, including the stereotypical views of soldiers and humanitarians in a war zone.

04:15          List of famous US Peace Corps alumni

05:25          Reflections on Dr Linda; Ben reveals his preconceptions on plastic surgery going into the episode – and how it changed!

07:00          David Gillespie’s Teen Brain – great read, albeit super scary if you have teenage children!

08:49          Parallels with our recent chat with Steve Biddulph

10:30          Linda’s art.  Far too talented…

11:40          Reflections on Kim Martens.  Starting with the benefits of starting your professional career at a fast food joint

12:35          Out of the Western Australian Police Force…..and into Iraq!

13:45          Ben’s profound reflections on the IED threat – ‘it was messed up!’

14:30          Ben and Tim reflect on humankind’s darker side, including through the lens of Eddie Jaku’s amazing book The Happiest Man on Earth

16:00          The nature of evil – and how it might not be that far away from many people in society

17:44          Tim’s switching speed – akin to an aircraft carrier turning around

18:07          Cat’s in the Cradle – still brings a tear to Ben’s eye

19:30          Ben and Kim’s shared passion of lapping in V8s

20:30          ‘Undue noise due to method of operation’ – Ben’s first traffic infringement.  Is this still a thing?  Let us know –

21:30          Listener feedback  - plus Ben and Tim trying to work out which of the ‘social medias’ they are on

23:00          Tegere Outdoors –  veteran owned company doing fantastic outdoor gear, including space-age facial mask!

24:45          Coffee Cannon crowdfunding campaign – get behind it!

28:00          Unforgiving60 reading list.  Coming soon.  We think.

30:00          Back by popular demand – Monika Georgieva!  Live in the studio

31:00          Only weirdos enjoy the SAS selection course

31:30          Mon’s best bit on selection

34:22          Mon’s lowest point on selection

38:00          Ben’s lowest point on selection.  Involving chickens

40:50          Physical and mental preparedness

43:15          Tim’s physical training journal.  Not a weighty tome

45:30          Specialisation. It’s for insects.

46:40          Life lessons from the selection course

48:30          Intrinsic and extrinsic motivators – finding the right balance

55:30          Life imitating art – Ben’s selection course-like experience on operations in Afghanistan

1:03:15       An email from Pucka!  With some great reflections on creating a safe-to-fail environment in training


External Links



The Externals … Available on Spotify


S2E19- David Olney: More Blind Insights on Collaboration & Battlefield Innovation

S2E19- David Olney: More Blind Insights on Collaboration & Battlefield Innovation

August 13, 2020

We couldn’t get enough into the first episode (Season 2 Epi 8) so here is the sequel. Another episode with David Olney -the smartest guy in the room on solving complex and wicked problems. In this episode we talk collaboration and innovation. Why is doctrinal thinking rewarded and how can we break paradigms.

David lectures on applied thinking, complex problem solving, philosophies of violence, group psychology, terrorism, strategic culture, and the clash of civilizations. He knows plenty of stuff.

Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

  • 04:00   Why we are back again
  • 06:05   David’s question of Ben and Tim on collaboration in the SAS
  • 08:45   Tim provides a rare useful insight on constrained thinking & indoctrination
  • 12:20   David responds on latitudes and orthodoxy
  • 14:10   How we task people. How that influences latitudes
  • 16:20   Communications technology, ‘surveillance over your people’ and conscious capitalism
  • 17:00   The Southwest airline example and trust
  • 17:55   What should we be doing to incentivise collaborative communication?
  • 20:29   On mission focus and breaking down silos. Don’t let people talk! ‘Nominal group technique’
  • 23:20   Tim’s question to David and Ben. A hypothetical on whether Stanley McChrystal would have passed doctrinal training with him ‘Team of Teams’
  • 26:30   Why wait to innovate? Fixation on knowledge… not learning
  • 28:25   Artificial worlds and wargaming
  • 33:00   Now is the time for ‘anything goes’
  • 36:10   Tactical exercises without troops & tests
  • 38:45   What about corporate to military to corporate lessons learned
  • 41:10   The frictions in modern day operations
  • 44:15   Good leadership…… how?

Blind Insights (Podcast): Link here


The Externals …. End song is ‘Pain’ is now available on Spotify.


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S2E18 – Turning Troubled Boys into Good Men with Rick Pedley-Smith

S2E18 – Turning Troubled Boys into Good Men with Rick Pedley-Smith

August 6, 2020

Rick Pedley-Smith is a good man.  And, through his selfless work in developing and running the Rite of Passage Boys’ Program, he’s helping to make more good men.  Rick began his career in 1997 as a classroom teacher in Sydney before heading to the UK where he worked as a classroom teacher and outdoor education coordinator for an ‘Emotional & Behavioural Disorder Unit’ in West London.

Then for the past 16 years, Rick has worked at one of Sydney’s largest high schools.

The Rite of Passage Boys’ Program is Rick’s initiative which aims to re-engage and support boys who are considered ‘at-risk’.  Through the program, the team conducts overnight camps, treks and challenges to help develop resilience, self-esteem and a culture of positive masculinity. His program utilises physical as well as social and emotional challenges to develop self-awareness and a sense of purpose in the boys.

As part of this, Rick has implemented numerous wellbeing initiatives that have led the community to raise over $19,000 for the Commando Welfare Trust and for villages along the Kokoda Track.  

In this chat, Ben and Tim explore how Rick came to start Rite of Passage, and his intent to re-appropriate the concept of initiation into manhood.  He describes the development of the program, tells some amazing stories of the successful outcomes that have been achieved and talks to the very deliberate steps they have put in place to avoid the program creating an exclusionary ‘boys club’.

Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

04:00   Rick’s background, growing up in the Southern Highlands of NSW and getting into teaching

07:40   Working in the UK with troubled children

09:50   How full is your balloon?  A great thought experiment that Rick uses to highlight the cumulative impacts of stress

14:00   What emotions do most teenage boys feel they can show? (Spoiler alert:  vulnerability is not one of them)

15:50   The importance of not confusing kindness with weakness

17:00   The Rite of Passage program

18:00   Imposter Syndrome as a parent (we’ve all been there!)

19:45   The term ‘rite of passage’ and its relevance in the modern world

22:00   Influence from a mutual friend - Fenno

24:05   ‘True leaders don’t create followers, they create more leaders’

25:30   How Rick designed his program….and the importance of physicality as a component

28:50   The importance of debriefing within the Rite of Passage program

31:10   How to create a ‘band of brothers’ without it turning exclusionary or toxic

35:50   Positive flow-on effects from the program into wider schoolwork

39:20   The role of literature in Rite of Passage – Kipling and Heinlein; great stuff!

43:45   The importance of empathy within the concept of manhood   

45:00   Recommended reading within the program, including Mark Donaldson VC’s The Crossroadand Mark’s involvement in the program

47:40   The importance of showing boys what a good man looks like – particularly for children who may never have seen one up close

51:10   How are fathers responding to the program?

54:15   The Rite of Passage association with the Australian Commando Association

56:00   Rick’s definition of success for the program

58:40   How to find out more about Rick and the Rite of Passage program (see below)


External Links



The Externals … Available on Spotify (plus a bit of Ben’s guitar work, recorded in the bathroom of one of Saddam’s palaces in Tikrit, Iraq!)


Contact Us @ the Unforgiving60 Podcast! 


S2E17 – On Parenting with Steve Biddulph, AM

S2E17 – On Parenting with Steve Biddulph, AM

July 30, 2020

Steve Biddulph is one of the world’s best-known parent educators. Steve has been a psychologist for 30 years and his books have sold over four million copies as well as having been translated into 31 languages. 


Ben and Tim talk with Steve about their own transformations after reading his books and talk the differences between raising boys and raising girls.


As well as plenty of good old-fashioned hugging. It’s alright to be affectionate peeps!


Listen in then try a few of Steve’s practical techniques.



Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

04:50   Steve talks about how and why he got into psychology…. You’ll be surprised.

08:30   Initial interest in the psychology of men and boys and family therapy (at age 24). And watching Dad’s struggling to parent.

11:33   Raising Boys - the End Product. What makes a good man?

14:45   Tim tells his story about how Steve’s book changed his relationships.

20:30   Tim keeps talking about hugging blokes.

21:30   Steve talks about a generation that is ‘thawing out’.

26:30   How different is this generation of children?

30:45   On traumatic stress and cumulation. Advice for parents.

31:00   The importance of rest and restoration as a family.

33:33   On mothers and sons (and Celia Lashlie’s work and book) … and that book is here .

38:45   Boys start off in Mum’s world … and then re-orientates.

41:00   About mentors for boys and building a bundle of masculinity.

45:50   Raising Girls- What’s the difference?

47:30   Girls sensitivity to social cues… and what the advertisers know and how they exploit it.

49:22   Steve on why the world is mistreating girls.

50:30   Feminism and all its gains are in jeopardy. Social media, mirrors, internet and TV.

52:00   Hyenas are stalking our girls.

52:45   Pornography and kids.

58:00   How can we parent more resilient kids?

1:00:00 What about corporal punishment?

1:03:15 Modern boundaries.

1:04:25 Closing words of advice of things to do with our sons and daughters. Changing the dynamic.




External Links




By Mitchell Martin … 'Beautiful' and 'Be Myself' ... Available on Spotify


S2E16 – Understanding Complexity with Dave Snowden (Comfort in Chaos and Uncertainty)

S2E16 – Understanding Complexity with Dave Snowden (Comfort in Chaos and Uncertainty)

July 23, 2020

Tim and Ben have previously drawn extensively on Dave Snowden’s material as a means of sense-making in complex environments. And here he is in person (virtually). In particular, Snowden’s Cynefin (pronounced ‘kin-ev-in’) framework has proven consistently to be an incredibly useful and intuitive sense-making tool for leaders in all contexts. 


In the period of heightened COVID-19 risk it has been highly instructional to the management teams that Tim and Ben work with.


In this episode, Dave joins us from the UK and speaks to not only Cynefin, but also complexity.


BYO notebook for the knowledge from this one!


Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

03:20   Dave and Ben’s first meeting at the SAS Regiment back

04:00   Dave provides an overview of his Cynefin framework

04:50   The domains – simple, complicated, complex and chaotic

09:20   Leading in complex environments – parallel probes

11:25   Every intervention into a complex system fundamentally changes it

12:00   ‘Nudges’ towards ‘adjacent possibles’ – stepping stones towards better results.  An alternative to trying to predict the future

13:45   The key to operating in complexity – know where you are and the rough direction you want to head

14:20   What can you control in a complex system?

17:00   Negative boundaries – teaching through failure, not success

18:20   Commander’s Intent – ‘metaphorical examples with counter-factuals’ – Dave’s Gettysburg example, taken from his time at DARPA

22:25   Are contemporary Western militaries doing ‘mission command’ well?

23:25   The Black Lives Matter protests through a Cynefin lens

27:00   Using ‘trios’ to validate decision-making in complexity

28:45   Neuroplasticity and its impacts in various stages in life

32:20   Why Dave got thrown out of the Pentagon

34:50   Human-mediated wargames: ‘far more malicious’

36:30   Ben on the benefits of Dave’s visit to the Australian SAS in 2009

39:00   Dave’s work with Peter Drucker

40:00   COVID-19 as a ‘Black Elephant’ – a cross between a Black Swan and the elephant in the room

43:15   The importance of narrative and storytelling

48:10   Using anecdotes to increase resilience

50:20   The importance of experience in training

51:30   COVID-19 – who got it right: the economists or the doctors?

52:30   Dave’s prognosis for contemporary political leadership


External Links



The Externals … Available on Spotify (plus a bit of Ben’s guitar work, recorded in the bathroom of one of Saddam’s palaces in Tikrit, Iraq!)


S2E15- Phil M Jones: Using Words for Influence and Impact (ie = ‘Sales’ (is not a dirty word))

S2E15- Phil M Jones: Using Words for Influence and Impact (ie = ‘Sales’ (is not a dirty word))

July 16, 2020

Phil M Jones is one of the world’s best salespersons. But Phil admits that his success is related to his ability to only do three things. Phil’s started understanding ‘the art of sales’ with a car wash at the age of 14 when he discovered he was earning more than his school teachers. So, as a result he limited his time going to school!

Phil was the youngest Sales Manager in the history of UK fashion retailer Debenhams. He then worked with UK Premier League Football Clubs on negotiating sponsorships and licensing agreements, to then being a key part of growing a £240 million property business.

Phil has delivered over 2,500 presentations in 57 countries across five continents, training more than two million people to learn how to have more influence, confidence and control when steering their conversations.

He has written multiple best-selling books with his book 'Exactly What to Say' being the #1 most listened to book on Audible, with over 700,000 copies sold and having been translated into 29 other languages.

 Also check out the video version of the interview on YouTube.


Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

  • 03:00. About Phil and car cleaning business at age 14 years old.
  • 04:15. The youngest even sales manager at Debenhams and beyond….
  • 05:00. 2008 was a pivot point for Phil’s keynote speaking.
  • 05:55. Phil’s success is related to his ability to only do three things.
  • 08:50. Success in selling anything is…..
  • 11:15. About ‘motivation’ in leading, influencing or selling.
  • 12:00. Sales or Business Development?
  • 13:00. Phil turns the interview around.
  • 17:20. Sales requires courage. And what about telling a story?
  • 22:00. The most important thing to the person you are talking to.
  • 23:20. Phil’s example of a professional icebreaker introduction.
  • 26:45. Phil’s story of a pen…. Shifting motivation and desire.
  • 30:10. Is it OK to manipulate people through the sales process?
  • 32:45. The theatre of leadership…. Being on stage. How?
  • 36:55. Using the room as a prop. Phil’s room… right now!
  • 48:50. Dealing with sales rejection and failures.
  • 52:22. The ‘persistent’ sales person. Is there a place for it?
  • 1:00:50. Quick Questions/ Quick Answers.


More on Phil:


Phil’s Social Media:



All music courtesy of The Externals including the end track: ‘The Day The Sun Forgot To Shine’ …. available on Spotify


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S2E14- Kim Martens: Surviving High Risk Environments from KFC to Karrada!

S2E14- Kim Martens: Surviving High Risk Environments from KFC to Karrada!

July 9, 2020

Kim Martens is a high-risk expert in intelligence and security risk management who has worked extensively in hostile environments. She has been attacked by rockets, mortars and improvised explosive devices in Iraq. She’s even hard core enough to even have proposed to her love in Iraq! And then stood beside that same fiancée after he was later blown up in Iraq.

After her first career in the police Kim was one of the first female close protection operators into Iraq. She then worked with the United Nations and the Australian Diplomatic Mission in Iraq before returning to Australia as an analyst.

We talk KFC and falling in love at KFC, cars, policing and the gold town of Kalgoorlie. Then into Iraq and being attacked on the infamous

Kim has a Bachelor of Counter Terrorism, Security and Intelligence, a Postgraduate Certificate in Intelligence and Terrorism and a Postgraduate Certificate in Intelligence Management / Islamic Studies.  


Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

  • 03:00. About Kim
  • 05:00. Wanting to be a police officer ….. but leaving home at 15 years old to work at KFC
  • 06:20. Rockingham cars. Strictly V8.
  • 08:12. Romance can blossom in a KFC.
  • 09:20. Joining the Police (at last …. 7 years later!).
  • 11:20. Into the gold town of Kalgoorlie.
  • 13:30. Headbutted in Kalgoorlie. And an apology.
  • 14:00. Heading into Iraq.
  • 16:25. Learning in Iraq…. And falling in love.
  • 18:30. How to propose to a guy in Iraq.
  • 21:04. Out to Karrada District in Baghdad.
  • 22:20. Another female close protection operator is discovered in Baghdad!
  • 24:00. Advice on female operators in high risk environments.
  • 28:00. Kim talks about ‘imposter syndrome’ and overcoming it.
  • 29:00. Kim is attacked on Route Irish (Airport Road) in Baghdad.
  • 31:30. Kim’s fiancée is hit by a vehicle borne improvised explosive device (VBIED).
  • 37:45. The value of study to complement Kim’s practical experience.


Spacers are Ben Pronk recorded live in Baghdad …

The Externals, Anastacia’s Hand …. available on Spotify



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