Two ex-special operations guys armed with MBAs seek out people leading lives less ordinary, in order to find out how they fill their ‘unforgiving minutes’, and what helps them go, always, a little further. Like intellectual bowerbirds, we collect shiny little objects of knowledge that will help build better humans. Co-hosted by Ben Pronk and Tim Curtis.
Episodes
Friday Jan 23, 2026
Friday Jan 23, 2026
Steve Biddulph is one of the world’s best-known parent educators. Steve has been a psychologist for 30 years and his books have sold over four million copies as well as having been translated into 31 languages.
Ben and Tim talk with Steve about their own transformations after reading his books and talk the differences between raising boys and raising girls.
As well as plenty of good old-fashioned hugging. It’s alright to be affectionate peeps!
Listen in then try a few of Steve’s practical techniques.
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
04:50 Steve talks about how and why he got into psychology…. You’ll be surprised.
08:30 Initial interest in the psychology of men and boys and family therapy (at age 24). And watching Dad’s struggling to parent.
11:33 Raising Boys - the End Product. What makes a good man?
14:45 Tim tells his story about how Steve’s book changed his relationships.
20:30 Tim keeps talking about hugging blokes.
21:30 Steve talks about a generation that is ‘thawing out’.
26:30 How different is this generation of children?
30:45 On traumatic stress and cumulation. Advice for parents.
31:00 The importance of rest and restoration as a family.
33:33 On mothers and sons (and Celia Lashlie’s work and book) … and that book is here .
38:45 Boys start off in Mum’s world … and then re-orientates.
41:00 About mentors for boys and building a bundle of masculinity.
45:50 Raising Girls- What’s the difference?
47:30 Girls sensitivity to social cues… and what the advertisers know and how they exploit it.
49:22 Steve on why the world is mistreating girls.
50:30 Feminism and all its gains are in jeopardy. Social media, mirrors, internet and TV.
52:00 Hyenas are stalking our girls.
52:45 Pornography and kids.
58:00 How can we parent more resilient kids?
1:00:00 What about corporal punishment?
1:03:15 Modern boundaries.
1:04:25 Closing words of advice of things to do with our sons and daughters. Changing the dynamic.
External Links
Music
By Mitchell Martin … 'Beautiful' and 'Be Myself' ... Available on Spotify
Thursday Jan 22, 2026
Thursday Jan 22, 2026
It's the year 2100. How would SAS inspired tactics fight the Zombie Apocalypse? Mick Neven is 120 years old but still a comedic legend. He loves a good apocalypse and has a comedy show to prove it!
Zombies are descending. What's YOUR life choice!?!?
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
- 0:30. The Situation in the year 2100
- 5:05. Welcome Mick Neven – Genius Mind & 'What do you have'?
- 7:20. When running from the tiger when do you rest?
- 8:30. From your childhood what do you bring?
- 9:00. Ben and Tim’s biological relationship
- 09:30. Mark Wales .... from Survivor.... Sux!
- 12:20. Ben and Tim’s early story
- 14:00. Talking SAS Selection
- 20:15. Would you have ‘them’ in your workforce?
- 22:15. Why Mick is in elite company!
- 24:25. How Comedians are funny- from Mick (not Ben and Tim!).
- 31:00. Australian v UK Comedy demand.
- 42:00. Ben wants high tech stuff in the Zombie Apocalypse!
- 44:30. Plans and the Zombies! Mick is sceptical!
- 47:45. Mick’s skills are critical!!!!
- 52:00. Mick thinks Ben and Tim can’t unite anyone!
- 52:40. Cray fisherman
- 56:45. What skills do we need in the apocalypse?
- 58:00. Obstacle Planning
- 1:04:00 Park runners we need you!!!
- 1:05:30 Tim’s obstacle plan- “The Molasses Pit”
- 1:06:00 How to kill with combine harvesters.,
- 1:08:30 Tim takes a selfie on the edge of - “The Molasses Pit”. Doesn’t end well.
- 1:11:30 Designing a “The Molasses Pit”.
- 1:12:00 Farewells and pleasantries!
Music.
NEW Music from The Externals in this Episode.
Music from The Externals is available on Spotify.
More
Contact Us
Saturday May 31, 2025
Saturday May 31, 2025
Ashley Semmens is a former Royal Australian Navy Clearance Diver who served for 18 years, specialising in explosive ordnance disposal. He has deployed multiple times, including to Afghanistan, and participated in Australia's military withdrawal in 2021. After surviving trauma from an IED attack, a sniper incident, and a horrific shark attack aftermath in Sydney Harbour, Ashley was medically discharged due to PTSD. Now, he's preparing to swim the English Channel — not just any swim, but on his back, using fins. It's a fundraising mission for the Navy Clearance Diver Trust and a deeply personal journey into fear, resilience, and purpose.
In this episode, Ash opens up about overcoming fear of the water, losing close mates, post-service mental health, and how he’s turning pain into a platform for support and recovery.
Key Moments
00:00 – Ben and Tim intro the episode and Ash’s unique goal: finning across the English Channel
01:14 – Comparison to Sam Penny’s Channel swim (Season 1, Episode 27)
01:40 – Ash’s clearance diving background and fear of water after trauma
02:45 – Military and Afghanistan service; PTSD and recovery journey
04:00 – Ash joins the conversation, starts with early life and growing up in Adelaide
06:00 – Competitive swimming as a teen; early struggles and successes
07:45 – 2003: Racing against Grant Hackett at Nationals
09:18 – Backstroke vs freestyle debate; Ash’s short course gold medal (with caveats)
10:00 – Natural transition to the Navy from competitive sport
11:01 – Joining as a direct entry diver and diver vs boatswain's mate decision
12:01 – Clearance Diver selection process explained — 10 days of being wet, sandy, and psychologically tested
14:07 – What Ash learned about focus, fatigue, and resilience during selection
15:00 – 2009 shark attack incident: Ash explains what happened to Paul de Gelder
17:34 – Ash’s role in the aftermath: trauma from cleaning the boat, psychological impact
18:29 – Lingering fear of large bodies of water, even lakes
20:00 – Later incident at Jervis Bay: panic before dive leads to difficult team moment
21:12 – Realisation of responsibility and shame around not seeking help
22:30 – Stigma and lack of psychological support during service
23:45 – What clearance divers do: diving, EOD, underwater repair, and land-based ops
25:16 – How Ash ended up doing EOD work in Afghanistan despite being too junior
27:22 – Becoming the most junior sailor to deploy for combat operations in Afghanistan
28:46 – Motivation to deploy: “It’s like a footballer wanting to play a grand final”
29:00 – Getting targeted by an IED during deployment
31:30 About the Bushmaster
34:42 Pressure builds up
39:30 PTSD, cracks, symptoms and care
44:00 ‘More to live for’ – side story
49:10 Medical discharge… and there are no protective factors in the military uniform
51:00 Role identity fusion
54:30 Finning the channel- breaking it down
External Links
- Navy Clearance Diver Trust
- Paul de Gelder – Shark Attack Survivor & Advocate
- S1E27 – Sam Penny swims the English Channel
Contact Us
www.unforgiving60.com
Email: debrief@unforgiving60.com
Instagram & Twitter: @Unforgiving60
Music
With thanks to: The Externals – available on Spotify
Thursday Oct 31, 2024
Thursday Oct 31, 2024
Jade MacDonald Razvi is a prominent Australian free diver and occupational therapist. She holds the second deepest dive in Australian history and recently won a bronze medal at the Free Diving World Cup. On this episode we talk about Jade’s growing up and freediving- how it works and how she trains.
As well as EH4AR (‘everything happens for a reason').
00:40 Starts with Ben’s hijack!
04:15 Jade on her lineage and growing up.
07:15 Sign language demonstration for the podcast audience
11:45 Jade’s swimming background- swimming into life! And swim times. And injuries.
19:00 What is an OT?
23:58 What is freediving?
25:20 Mermaids and Merbutlers
30:05 How Jade got into freediving and explaining competitions
39:00 How Jade rains for freediving…. without deep water.
46:30 Professional freedivers- are they a thing?
48:45 Breaking records!
1:01:33 How does Jade get herself through profound discomfort?
1:04:20 Applying a mantra and meditation in her diving
1:10:15 Can you lose the edge?
1:12:15 What is Jade’s limit?
1:14:00 EH4AR… Jade explains
1:18:20 Book recommendations and audiobook
1:20:45 Jade’s Power song and country music
1:23:25 Underwater predators
External Links
Jade’s Insta
Martin McPhilimey episode is here
Contact Us
Email us at debrief@unforgiving60.com
Instagram, Twitter: @Unforgiving60
Music …. With thanks to:
The Externals – available on Spotify
Mitchell Martin - available on Spotify
Monday Sep 09, 2024
Monday Sep 09, 2024
We first had the privilege of meeting Leigh Anderson on the 2022 Resilience Retreat and have been stoked to stay in touch from there – particularly so given the recent publication of his book, ‘The Paramedic Mindset’. In this episode, Leigh talk with us about that book, as well as his 14+ years as a paramedic. Leigh discusses the ups and downs of the role including not only the amazing lifesaving assistance he has provided on countless occasions, but also those rare moments when his best wasn’t good enough. Along the way, he’s developed some impressive practical tools for grappling with pressure, trauma and failure, which he shares with us as well.
06:00 Leigh’s backstory – paramedicine via a close brush with professional rugby league!
11:15 Ben reveals his ignorance and asks ‘what exactly is a paramedic?!’
15:30 The human side of paramedicine
17:20 What DON’T you learn at paramedic school?!
19:20 What technique does Leigh recommend to stay calm and think clearly during high stress situations?
23:20 How partners can assist in high pressure situations
29:00 The (often unspoken) excitement of a really nasty job…and how paramedics can deal with continued exposure to trauma
34:00 An alternate (and brilliant) definition of success
37:00 Dealing with failure – and growth from trauma
40:00 The perils of role/identity fusion within paramedicine
46:00 Leigh’s experience on the 2022 Resilience Retreat (on a related note, sign up now for the 2024 Resilience Retreat – 24-27 Oct 2024 in the Gold Coast hinterland!)
48:15 How does Leigh put trauma behind him?
52:00 What is Leigh’s powersong?! (Maybe not what you’d expect – check it out!)
External Links
Monica Lewinsky’s TED talk on shame
Contact Us
Email us at debrief@unforgiving60.com
Instagram, Twitter: @Unforgiving60
Music …. With thanks to:
The Externals – available on Spotify
Thursday Jul 25, 2024
Thursday Jul 25, 2024
Kat Rae is an artist who works across an incredible variety of media. Her confronting work, Deathmin, was recently recognised as winner of the 2024 Napier Waller Art Prize and represents the fourth time Kat has been shortlisted for this prestigious award. In this podcast, Kat talks about her artistic journey, including her first career within the Australian Army during which time she met her husband Andrew. Tragically, it was Andrew’s death that inspired her prizewinning piece and Kat very bravely talks to this devastating event and how she channelled this grief and frustration into Deathmin.
06:30 Kat’s background and early years – how she got into art….and the Army!
07:15 Some of Kat’s artistic inspiration included the ‘Angry Penguins’ – many of whom had completed military service
07:40 Art and Army – does that mix?!
11:30 Kat’s time at ADFA – the Australian Defence Force Academy
15:00 The Royal Military College Duntroon – not as much fun as ADFA….
16:00 Into the big world of Army – Kat’s military career, including a stint within the prestigious Australian Federation Guard
23:00 The tragic death of Kat’s husband Andrew
29:00 Kat discusses her Napier Waller prizewinning piece, Deathmin
36:30 So what is the Napier Waller art prize? And a little about Kat’s previous entries, including…
40:30 Cloud Slide, Coming Home and Reckoning
48:00 How did it feel to win on her fourth submission?
51:00 With all that she’s experienced – positive and negative – how does Kat now feel when she looks at the Australian Army?
1:02:40 What’s next for Kat – including within the art space?
External Links
Kat’s website – katrae.net
Kat’s Insta - @kat_a_rae
Kat’s 2024 prizewinning Napier Waller submission
Contact Us
Email us at debrief@unforgiving60.com
Instagram, Twitter: @Unforgiving60
Music …. With thanks to:
The Externals – available on Spotify
Thursday Jul 18, 2024
Thursday Jul 18, 2024
This week we host Bill Lennan who will teach us how to be 40% better! He was a kit who was introverted and had social anxiety.. so Bill built his own toolkit.
As Bills tells his story...
- Friend: How'd you get that role?
- Me: Talking with strangers.
- Friend: What?
Talking with strangers is a gateway skill.
It enables you to talk with team-mates, stakeholders, leaders, execs, and clients. It also makes interviews way easier.
Let’s get into it
04:50 Bill growing up… and Tim needs to grow up (according to Ben)
06:15 Bill working on cars- Ferraris and more….
07:30 More beautiful car ever made?
Ferraris or Lamborghini?
10:15 Life after playing with supercars
12:00 Introversion and anxiety- Bill’s toolkit
13:45 Everything is a system…. And so understand the mental models
15:00 Dialectical behavioural therapy
20:40 Getting use to discomfort- that is about growth!
22:50 Critical thinking skills- is this unsafe or not. How do you look at scary things?
24:30 The value in physical risk
29:20 Talking AI and software. The future?
33:11 The phones not the problem. It’s the absence of alternatives that is the problem!
34:20 Risks and growing up
36:00 Farming and how rural setting change our focus
38:15 Leaders- system, reps and recipes- ‘latticework’s’. The big models for leadership development
44:15 What is kaizen and why does it work?
46:30 Talking people and performance
52:20 Making tough and unpopular decisions- how to do it if we are overly familiar?
55:50 What’s in Bill’s library
1:00:00 Bill’s Powersong!
External Links
Bill on Linked In
Contact Us
Email us at debrief@unforgiving60.com
Instagram, Twitter: @Unforgiving60
Music …. With thanks to:
The Externals – available on Spotify
Thursday Jun 20, 2024
Thursday Jun 20, 2024
Tim and Ben love breathing. Not just for the fact that it keeps them alive (although that is undoubtedly a strong benefit…) but also for the opportunity it gives to tap into the body’s autonomic nervous system and impact its emotional state. In this episode, they speak with Martin McPhilimey – someone who was researching the impacts of breath long before it was cool - and find out how the differences between some popular breathing techniques and when these are best applied.
07:30 Breath as the ‘core of the dynamic interplay’ between mind and body
08:30 Martin’s background – how he got interested in stress, breathing and sleep
10:30 The link between breathing and sleep
15:00 The importance of being a scientist and a practitioner
16:00 How Martin starts with a new client
21:00 The impacts and requirements for oxygen and carbon dioxide within the body
22:00 What is air hunger, why is it so powerful and what triggers it?
28:50 The benefits of increasing our air hunger tolerance
33:20 Using wearables to monitor and improve your breathing
36:15 Martin’s take on the utility and applicability of some of the more popular breathing techniques, including:
37:00 Box (or combat!) breathing…
38:30 …4-7-8 breathing…
40:25 ..and could 4-7-20 be better than 4-7-8?!...
41:00 …the physiological sigh, and…
43:45 Wim Hof or tummo style hyperventilation techniques
47:30 What Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu can teach you about breath
51:00 Tips and trick for increasing our tolerance to air hunger?
54:30 Martin’s business – Performance Through Health
59:15 The Performance Through Health breath science certification
1:01:30 How to incorporate breathing techniques for children
1:04:00 What does Martin do for Martin? (Including his jiu-jitsu practice with Ground Control Jiu-Jitsu)
External Links
Martin’s Insta – some great stuff on here, give him a follow
Martin’s LinkedIn
Contact Us
Email us at debrief@unforgiving60.com
Instagram, Twitter: @Unforgiving60
Music …. With thanks to:
The Externals – available on Spotify
Monday Jun 03, 2024
Monday Jun 03, 2024
Dr Andrew Bengsen talks to us this week about controlling ferals! Animals that is. Andrew has over 15 years’ experience in pest animal management or research and has been with the NSW Department of Primary Industries, Vertebrate Pest Research Unit for a decade.
But also we discuss Andrew’s first career in the military- including serving in Rwanda over the period of the tragic and confronting Kibeyo massacre.
We talk about luck- both good and bad. And perspective.
As well as Andrews ‘role’ (very poor choice of words Tim) in the recent NSW floods, where Andrew’s family home was destroyed by the rising flood waters.
06:00 Andrew’s growing up and not finishing school. Joining the Army
11:45 Operational deployments being rare. Enter Rwanda
15:00 The complexity and challenges of peacekeeping operations
20:24 22 April 1995, the Kibeyo Massacre
24:00 Post Rwanda study … even without finishing school.
27:20 Being a bouncer in Townsville and learnings
34:00 Continuing study and enter into feral research (zoology and tropical ecology). The impact of feral animals and how we control them
47:20 Complexity!
55:00 Talking about the impact of the NSW Floods
1:01:00 The importance of community during the disaster
More on NSW DPI and Andrews Work is here:
https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/staff/profiles/andrew-bengsen
https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-bengsen-b7913a193/
Contact Us
Email us at debrief@unforgiving60.com
Instagram, Twitter: @Unforgiving60
Music …. With thanks to:
The Externals – available on Spotify
Mitchell Martin- available on Spotify
Thursday May 23, 2024
Thursday May 23, 2024
Ruth Clare, quite rightly, describes herself as a “multi-passionate human who doesn't fit neatly into a box!” Her formal credits include being a TEDx and motivational keynote speaker, award-winning author, embodied speaking coach, performer, mental health and child voice activist, as well as a qualified scientist with demonstrated expertise in authenticity, resilience and change. In this podcast, Ruth speaks with the boys about her traumatic childhood, which she captures in her truly moving memoir Enemy. But more than this, she also speaks about her growth from that point, and what she’s learned about the mind, the body and human interaction along the way.
04:42 Opening with a sobering quote from Ruth’s book
06:45 What was it like to be living as a child under the spectre of domestic violence?
10:30 Why Ruth wrote her book Enemy and what she’s learnt about some of the drivers for her father’s violence
16:30 Did Ruth ever feel safe at home?
20:30 How Ruth has worked to deal with the trauma that she suffered as a child, including focusing on her internal locus of control
27:00 Broaching the issues of PTSD with people who may be suffering…and the potential downsides of ‘trigger warnings’
37:15 Discussions on contemporary treatments for PTSD
47:30 Ruth’s resilience tools
52:20 Ruth’s power song!
External Links
Ruth’s website
Ruth’s Insta
Ruth’s book, Enemy
Contact Us
Email us at debrief@unforgiving60.com
Instagram, Twitter: @Unforgiving60
Music …. With thanks to:
The Externals – available on Spotify