The Unforgiving60
@RV11- On Jim Molan, the MV Tampa, English Channel Swimming, Aviation Business and ‘Cheek-sent-me-high’

@RV11- On Jim Molan, the MV Tampa, English Channel Swimming, Aviation Business and ‘Cheek-sent-me-high’

October 3, 2019

In this RV, Tim and Ben reflect back on the recent interviews with Jim Molan, Sam Penny and Jack Moshovis.  In the course of this, Ben tries to remember when the MV Tampa incident occurred and provides some reflections from his perspective as a troop commander during this operation, following which Tim and Ben offer some extremely shallowly-researched thoughts on boredom.  

Per convention, they also use the RV to field some great questions from listeners, starting with more attacks on Ben’s dress and bearing, this time from a previous platoon sergeant who is extremely disappointed to note Ben’s slip in grooming standards since leaving the military.  They also debate whether 'work-life balance’ is actually achievable, and Tim challenges us to swap the word ‘busy’ with ‘focused’ in our lexicon. 

And finally, Ben continues his very average track record of mispronunciation while trying to name-drop academics (for note, the researcher he was struggling to remember was Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi (pronounced ‘cheek-sent-me-high’) who pioneered the concept of ‘flow’) and reflects on how enjoyable it is to interrupt Tim in the middle of a ‘pomodoro’. 

Enjoy the RV and - as always - we wish you luck in filling your own Unforgiving60s with some quality distance run. Just get started!


**Music by our great friends at The Externals (available on Spotify)

S1E28 – Jack Moshovis – Building High Performance Aircraft in the Sky!

S1E28 – Jack Moshovis – Building High Performance Aircraft in the Sky!

September 26, 2019

Jack Moshovis was always mechanically minded. He used to look up at aeroplanes with fascination as a kid and ponder who built and maintained them and, indeed, how they flew. He always had some sort of a project going in his younger years and unsurprisingly after finishing high school he got an apprenticeship working as a mechanic on Air Force aircraft … learning his craft on high performance military lead-in fighter aircraft.

Fast forward a few years, Jack got an opportunity to be in the business of aviation. He committed to being a business owner. So what do you do when you come to work and the hangar is cleaned out by your business partner- including everything in the fridge!?

You start again!

Jack has worked with the Red Bull Air Race World Champion- Matt Hall. In fact Matt Hall described Jack as ‘a life saver’. Of course we talk with Jack about Matt and the Red Bull Air Race.

And then you fall in love …. with a high performance aircraft. You hug it every day- literally. And when the Company comes up for sale. But you don’t have the money. What do you do?

Jack explains what he did. 

He now owns MX Aircraft. 

This is a great chat with a great bloke!


Let’s get on with the show!


Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

00:00-  Let’s start with Amateur Hour!

02:15-  How it started…. The meeting and the history

06:00- What the reward is…

06:25- Jack’s favourite thing to work on

08:20- Jack and World Champion Matt Hall…. Matt described Jack as ‘a life saver’

11:50- How technical is Matt Hall?

13:50- Jack on The Red Bull Air Race

15:10- On his first failure, regret and let down... and what you do about it

19:10- The MX high performance aerobatic aircraft

20:15- Why you hug an aircraft as a mechanic!

21:00- ‘One day I’m going to own you’- Jack M

24:00- The MX types….

26:25- The teething problems (fatalities!) …. & what Jack did.

33:12- Tim’s aerobatic proficiency! And what this amateur has flown!

36:45- Sales and marketing

37:50- Quick Questions/ Quick Answers  ….. to Jack

  • How important is family?
  • Definition of happiness?
  • What are you reading?
  • Last good movie?
  • Choice of food?
  • Favourite holiday destination?
  • If you could change one thing in the aviation industry?
  • The future of aviation?
  • 4th Industrial Revolution…. And aviation maintenance


Website and Links

Rob Holland and his MX Aircraft:



As always…. Courtesy of 'The Externals' …. Available on Spotify

S1E27- Sam Penny: English Channel Swimmer- ‘I didn’t come this far to only come this far’

S1E27- Sam Penny: English Channel Swimmer- ‘I didn’t come this far to only come this far’

September 19, 2019

Sam Penny is a father, cheesemonger, civil engineer and endurance athlete who is currently training to conduct a DOUBLE crossing of the English Channel.  Looking at his physical accomplishments – which in addition to Channel crossings, include the conduct of a Backyard Ultra running race and swimming a mile in ice water - you could be forgiven for thinking that he’s some kind of superhuman.  But, as we find out in this interview, Sam is a refreshingly normal guy who likes to set lofty goals and then work towards them - one step (or stroke!) at a time.

In this discussion, we find out how Sam does this, as well as how he deals with the physical and mental discomfort associated with endurance feats of this kind. We also learn about his greatest fear and how he overcomes this through a deliberate action plan, and ponder why the cheese is so good in Vanuatu.

Just count to 10!

Enjoy the show!


Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

2:07            The excellence of cheese in Vanuatu

4:30            Sam’s early athletic career, including his triathlon days and the dangers of a life of complacency

7:30            How Sam got into swimming and ocean racing

9:20            Sam’s early fascination with swimming the English Channel

10:00          Preparation for the channel swim

13:00          How modern life breeds complacency and takes away our ability to dream

15:30          Sam discusses goal setting, both long- and short-term

17:45          What does a training program for a double English Channel crossing look like?

19:40          Shutting off your mind during long distance swimming

22:40          “I didn’t come this far only to come this far”- Tom Brady

23:40          Last One Standing – Sam does a Backyard Ultra

29:30          The mental barrier of crossing the channel and how Sam overcame this

31:10          Ben asks the big questions – in a double crossing, is it compulsory to tumble-turn at France?!

33:25          Sam talks his goal time for the double crossing

35:32          How do you rest when swimming for the best part of a full day?

38:30          Chats from the Chest Fridge – why Sam sits in a converted freezer full of ice water

41:30          Controlling breathing in ice-cold water

43:07          The Ice Mile – the most stupid thing Sam has ever done

52:07          Sam talks heart rate – and reveals his very impressive resting heart rate!

55:30          Sam’s shark attack action plan

1:00:30       Sam’s definition of happiness





S1E26- General Jim Molan, AO, DSC - No Backward Step

S1E26- General Jim Molan, AO, DSC - No Backward Step

September 12, 2019

General Jim Molan, AO, DSC is a former soldier, diplomat, author and speaker. We explore all things from why 'Andrew' is called 'Jim' through to winning the war in Iraq, border security and national energy policy.

Of course we go low-brow too!

Jim has unfinished business in Australian politics. He explains why!

Unbeknownst to Jim, we personally selected 'General Jim's' close protection team leader in 2004.... and we have some inside information on General Jim! We share it too!

As always we continue to show learned insubordination to our highest ranking former military officer!

PS: Apologies for the audio quality ..... as you know we suck at podcasting! 



Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

  • 3:45. Speaking Tok Pisin! Papua New Guinean 'Tok Ples'. A Young Jim in the Pacific Islands Regiment.
  • 5:40. Jim gets warned!
  • 6:10. Tim talks Henry Kissinger!
  • 6:40. What Jim is most proud of.
  • 12:00. What Jim is least proud of.
  • 14:00. On styles of leadership. 
  • 17:40. Kipling's world.
  • 18:45. The human part of leadership.... and a lack of hubris.
  • 19:40. General Jim on East Timor.... what would he have done differently (hindsight)?
  • 21:41. Clausewitz and Jim. War is politics by other means.
  • 25:45. Is politics, war by other means?
  • 28:05. 2004 Iraq. Stories from Jim's SAS Close Protection Team Leader 
  • 33:00. 2004 Iraq (cont'd). When there is an SAS guy involved.... the walls have ears! Stories from the walls!
  • 36:39. Why Jim's SAS Close Protection Team didn't let him nap!
  • 38:15. Leadership advice to any junior leader
  • 44:25. The battlefield of politics. 
  • 49:25. The future of Jim in politics? Paraphrasing Churchill......
  • 50:00. On border security.
  • 52:40. On energy security.
  • 55:10. Quick Questions/ Quick Answers (kinda!).
  • 58:38. Who Jim invites to his dinner party (living or dead).
  • 1:01.00. The final say (and appropriately).


Music By:  The Externals    (as always!!!!)...... check them out on Spotify




@RV10 – On Susan Saleeba and Chris Collard, Servant Leadership, Psychopaths and Ben’s Leather Vest

@RV10 – On Susan Saleeba and Chris Collard, Servant Leadership, Psychopaths and Ben’s Leather Vest

September 5, 2019

As the RV concept hits the meteoric height of double figures, Ben and Tim talk about their interviews with Susan Saleeba and Chris Collard, reflecting on topics ranging from gentle African words to getting punched in the head by a world champion. 

They then field a number of fantastic listener questions, which sees the conversation switching from a discussion of arrogance and sociopathy straight to pondering who was the GOAT (greatest of all time) servant leader! 

Ben also speaks to some of his unfortunate historical fashion choices, including addressing allegations that he used to get around in a leather vest and a Mustang, while Tim talks about failure, foibles and regrets.

Amongst all this, the boys discuss a great new method of passing a little piece of goodwill to someone, through Phil Hayes-St Clair’s Be in Motion project.

And, in a departure from the normal The Externals outro music, Ben and Tim finish this RV with a very special recital of Banjo Patterson’s The Man From Snowy River from recent guest and all-round good guy Sans Tattoo.



social media: @unforgiving60    #unforgiving60 

S1E25- Chris Collard- No Barriers! From Jail to World Champion in 5 Years.

S1E25- Chris Collard- No Barriers! From Jail to World Champion in 5 Years.

August 22, 2019

Chris Collard is a world champion indigenous kickboxer and professional fighter. But it has not been an easy path. Chris spent his early years in and out of the juvenile justice system. Chris ‘celebrated’ his 18th birthday in prison BUT five years later he won his world title fight.

This is a story of inspiration- from a broken home to a happy home. A man wanting only to encourage belief in those who feel there is none.

Chris has over 70 professional fights across kickboxing, Muay Thai and pro boxing. He is also a three times Victorian middleweight boxing championship

And he’s also a bricklayer! Chris talks also about how being a brickie has been great for his fighting career.

With no role models and coming from a broken family this is also a story of tenacity and hard work. On how to turn your life around. It is a heart-warming interview with a man who now only wants to inspire and mentor those who may have started life like him….

“Fighting is like a game of physical chess. The best man with the best moves’ wins” – Chris

Breathing and mindfulness? No.

On visualizing the fight? No.

Pre-match rituals? No.

Footnote: Ben also got in the ring with Chris. He got punched a lot .… Ben that is! Marc Wohling (in Episode 23) talks about this fight, and describes Ben as looking like he was working out a puzzle. 


Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

  • 4:00. How, where and why it started.
  • 4:50. Chris’s recollection of his first ever fight in the ring.
  • 5:25. Chris’s tough upbringing.
  • 8:30. Chris’s professional record.
  • 12:30. That world title fight!
  • ‘He planted him like a tree!’ … Footage of that fight:
  • 16:40. That feeling of winning a world title
  • 18:50. How to work through pain.
  • 27:10. Chris’s next MMA fight.
  • 29:40. Being a role model.
  • 32:45. About being a bricklayer.. and the benefits!
  • 34:10. On fear, nerves and fighting.
  • 35:40. On breathing and mindfulness, visualizing the fight and pre-match rituals
  • 36:05. The Steve Dale fight… and Chris wearing silver sunnies:
  • 41:40. A Hypothetical Fight with Danny Green.
  • 42:20. A Hypothetical fight with Anthony Mundine.
  • 43:20. Chris’s toughest fight.
  • 43:35. Chris’s shortest fight.
  • 44:10. The one must do training exercise for boxers.
  • 47:10. Home life now in comparison to Chris’s upbringing.


Music by The Externals:  Song is Seven Brothers from the Album Bushranger Rock .... available on Spotify.

  • Hear our interview with The Externals on Episode 16.



S1E24- Susan Saleeba- All Give, No Take: Inspiring Hope for Kenyan Children

S1E24- Susan Saleeba- All Give, No Take: Inspiring Hope for Kenyan Children

August 8, 2019

In this episode we head into the depths of a Kenyan slum with Susan Saleeba. Susan is one of the most selfless people we have come across. She gave up her lifestyle to start Nakuru Hope's Orphanage in the slums of Kaptembwa, Nakuru, Kenya. She now has integrated an orphanage, school and farm to bring education, hope and a life to hundreds of kids…. who previously were literally living on piles of rubbish.

She left behind her idyllic lifestyle in Australia to pursue her purpose - or what our previous guest Greg Wallace has called – ‘following your bliss’.

This is an amazing story. Of joy and frustration and sadness. Of loss but also gain.

Life I feel tends to move quickly the older I get, or is it that I endeavour to pack so much in, as there is still so much to do?- Susan

And boys- Susan is single!!!!

Get involved in this great cause. Make a difference.


Music as always by....  The Externals.

@RV9- On Phil HSC & Sans Tattoo, Alaskan Real Estate Deals, Junior Leadership and Life without Consequences

@RV9- On Phil HSC & Sans Tattoo, Alaskan Real Estate Deals, Junior Leadership and Life without Consequences

August 5, 2019

There's plenty in this RV. Ben and Tim reflect on the episodes with Phil HSC and Sans Tattoo; as well as hearing from Phil HSC on Sans Tattoo! Then musings on the Cynefin framework and why hindsight isn't as great as people think it is!!

We then detour to LAX and meet Ben and Tim in the lounge discussing their trip to Alaska and Alaskan real estate deals!

Then what was taught in recent junior leadership workshops. Plus what about emotional contagion, imposter syndrome, Tim's thinking on micro leadership ..... and much more.

* Our question posed to all is: "What would you do today, if you knew you couldn't fail?"

* Who reads show notes anyway!?!? 

As always Music from The Externals.


S1E23- Marc Wohling- Movement is a Story

S1E23- Marc Wohling- Movement is a Story

August 1, 2019

This episode is a fire side chat. Literally! Marc Wohling discovered surfing, music and martial arts early in life. These three things gave him a pattern for life; but also a structure for loss. Working in remote communities and with underprivileged youth, Marc has been using techniques drawn from surfing, music and martial arts to teach, coach and mentor.

And Messr Sans Tattoo joins our chat by the fire.

In this episode we discuss Marc’s eclectic background and adventures. From West Timor, to the red dust of outback Australian aboriginal communities through to the best guitar rifts and then into the boxing ring. This is another great yarn.

And we conclude with a song from Marc’s band Handsome Frank ….


Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)



Website & Contact

Marc’s Blog:

Music by Handsome Frank (‘On Me’)

S1E22- Conversations with Mandela … and Subsequent Corporate Combat - Sans Tattoo

S1E22- Conversations with Mandela … and Subsequent Corporate Combat - Sans Tattoo

July 17, 2019

From bouncer to the boardroom. ‘Sans Tattoo’ is an ex-soldier and former bouncer who designed the fighting system that was taught to Nelson Mandela’s personal bodyguard.

But that’s the short version of a longer story.

In order to get there Sans dealt with months of rejection. He was out of money, but not out of belief, when he seized on one small opportunity. His fighting system has been used by many police and military units including the US FBI and 22 SAS (UK).

This interview is full of philosophical goodness. San’s recounts his interactions with President Mandela, and how he uses his knowledge, skills and experiences as a bouncer in his current career as a highly regarded professional speaker.

And unlike a lot of ex-Bouncers, Sans has studied post-graduate law and taught conflict resolution strategies to executives on five continents. Sans has shared the speaking stage with major identities that include former Australian Prime Minister John Howard, Olympic Gold Medallist Lauren Burns, and Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak.

Sans blends humour, hard facts and practical tools anyone can apply to reduce conflict and build trust. He also shares his resilience model with us that provides a toolkit on how to deal with the everyday stressors that we all confront in the ‘age of outrage’.

 ‘The common thread of successful people is discipline’- Sans Tattoo

 Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

  • 2:30- Which is more difficult- being on a nightclub door or speaking to a corporate audience ?
  • 4:05- Sans’ endearing memories of Africa
  • 7:11- Dealing with rejection… and overcoming it
  • 10:12- ‘Entrepreneur’ by another name (in 1994)
  • 14:20- Being receptive to ritual dissent
  • 16:30- An anecdote about Nelson Mandela
  • 19:05- San’s first meeting with Nelson Mandela
  • 7 things you don’t know about Nelson Mandela (via BBC):
  • 21:50- Nelson Mandela’s advice on what a child owes a parent
  • 23:45- On stoicism
  • 28:10- Using combat techniques to deal with fear
  • 30:45- Sans outlines his ritual recitation before each keynote
  • 32:20- The importance of narrative and storytelling for leaders.
  • 34:26- Aesops Fable on video for kids:
  • 35:55- What are the secrets to communicating a good message?
  • 41:10- Education v Entertainment… which do you need?
  • 45:10- The evolution of the human species into a goldfish (our decreasing attention span)
  • Time Magazine Article on Attention Span:
  • 49:05- The Goldfish Series of Questions (Quick Questions/ Quick Answers)
  • 51:45- San’s Resilience Model (….. get your pens out!)
    • Mind
    • Body
    • Social
    • Global
  • 1:00:20- Is Sans Tattoo really Sans Tattoo?


Website & Contact


Music by The Externals available on Spotify