The Unforgiving60
@RV16- On Mark Wales, Alec Torelli, Mitchell Martin, Dianna Nguyen … & Embracing the Virus (Another Isolation Edition!)

@RV16- On Mark Wales, Alec Torelli, Mitchell Martin, Dianna Nguyen … & Embracing the Virus (Another Isolation Edition!)

April 23, 2020

In another physical distancing episode of the edition RV, and still waist deep in grenade pins and COVID-19, Ben and Tim reflect on these awesome episodes:

  • From SAS to Tough Luxury with Mark Wales.
  • Lessons learned from high stakes poker from Alec Torelli
  • The 23 year old musical whiz kid, Mitchell Martin
  • (Still) Chasing Keanu Reeves with Dianna Nguyen
  • Embracing the Virus!
  • And whats next on the podcast ?

And hey! It’s another Zoom episode so please excuse the audio … ya super snobs! xx


Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

02:01         Reflections on Mark Wales

03:20         Giving an Axe as a present? 

04:30         The ‘War and Peace’ Fragrance

05:50         Fragrance being described as ‘creamy metallic’

08:30         Sorry Kikki K!!

08:50         Regionals Athlete- Ben

11:10         Reflections on Alec Torelli

11:30         Alec as a negative beta stock! In demand in COVID-19

13:30         The third person. T-Man does refer to himself in the third person … mostly just to be annoying.

15:10         Onto Mitchell; Martin…. 23-year-old musical superstar (New Single: Be Myself).

16:14         Gusting sickening when you see this sort of talent! (joking!)

16:30         What was Tim doing at age 23?

16:50         Streaming v downloading!? Tim showing his generational ignorance

17:40         Big in Argentina! “The organisation….. on Instagram…. What is that called?”

22:15         A slice of the band Atlas Chasers….. with the song ‘Bridges’. (see the Season 1 Episode with Rod Bridge for some REAL meaning with this song)

24:00         Embrace the Virus

25:15         COVID-19. Leaders moving in dog years.

27:10         Dianna Nguyen is still chasing Keanu Reeves!

29:10         What’s coming up next on the podcast?

30:02         About the charity: Foodbank WA

31:15         About the charity: Soldiers & Sirens

32:05         Tim’s ideas for ANZAC Day……….. watch this space.


Contact Us





The Externals …. Available on Spotify

Mitchell Martin …. Available on Spotify

Atlas Chasers …. Available on Spotify



@RV15- On Mick Neven, Heather Taylor and Monika Georgieva (Easter Isolation Edition!)

@RV15- On Mick Neven, Heather Taylor and Monika Georgieva (Easter Isolation Edition!)

April 14, 2020

In this Easter Isolation Edition of the RV, and amidst COVID-19 (connecting via Zoom), Ben and Tim reflect on the first three episodes that have kicked off Season 2.

  1. Combatting the Zombie apocalypse with comedian Mick Neven.
  2. Rowing across the Pacific with Heather Taylor.
  3. Breaking through glass ceilings with Australia’s first female infantry officer- Monika Georgieva.

And hey! It’s a Zoom episode so please excuse the audio … ya audio snobs! xx



00:49         Tim brings Ben Easter Eggs. Ben brings Tim dog food.

01:30         Ben loves social distancing. Note:  Misanthrope: a person who dislikes humankind and avoids human society.

02:45         Reflections on comedian Mick Neven.

03:15         More about that molasses trap! And the equivalent in COVID-19.

04:30         What’s the centre of gravity if it’s not Bunnings?

05:25         Ben admits the molasses trap was Tim’s idea… BUT … the farmers give their views on why it won’t work.

07:25         Support the comedians! And wider entertainers.

09:25         Killing off Mark Wales in the Zombie apocalypse.

10:00         How tough is Ben with a Kill Kapture jacket on?

11:30         Onto Heather Taylor…. In California now.

12:20         On social distancing.

13:15         Ben’s terrible questions to Heather! And repeatedly bad!

15:00         Research?!?

17:15         The Stoics. What they did in isolation in the 3rd Century BC.

19:20         Is COVID-19 merely a rehearsal? Note: We are NOT uncomfortable.

21:20         How’s Ben’s faith in humanity?

22:45         Where to for face to face meetings in the future!?

23:50         When a chicken joins the video call!

24:30         Onto Monika Georgieva….

26:30         Monika didn’t ever want to be ‘the first’ … she was just pursuing her bliss!

27:25         The Externals take us out with ‘Edge of the World’.






Contact Us




The Externals …. Available on Spotify

S2E7- Comedian Diana Nguyen is Chasing Keanu Reeves!

S2E7- Comedian Diana Nguyen is Chasing Keanu Reeves!

April 6, 2020

Diana Nguyen is Chasing Keanu Reeves. She is a Vietnamese- Australian comedian and actor she has featured in many comedy festivals, TED talks and television. But its far deeper than that. Her mother was a refugee and that story and legacy is wound through all of her work. It’s unique…. And after wanting to be nothing more than to be an Australian, she now weaves ethnicity, gender and tiger-mothers into her work.

She is edgy and funny.

We talk comedy, gender and ethnicity, sex and intergenerational conflict. Just the light stuff!



1:00           The tapestry of themes to Dianna.

2:00           What happened that she didn’t become a lawyer (or similar).

3:00           Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother…. And its applicability (or not).

10:00         Racism and its influence on Dianna.

12:45         Why she chooses not to see colour.

13:15         On trying to fit in.

14:30         Does Dianna speak Vietnamese?

15:40         Did Dianna hide a boyfriend in her cupboard?

17:30         An alternate solution to cupboards.

18:00         Paradigm shifting and role models.

20:10         Parasite- The Movie.

22:45         Other people’s opinions…. Do they matter?

23:45         Performing on stage.

25:30         Presence and body language- the power pose.

27:10         Chasing Keanu Reeves- Being sad on a bench.

29:45         Being happy with yourself.

31:20         Quick Questions/ Quick Answers. 











 Diana works for The Humour Foundation. If you would like to donate, click on this link


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The Externals …. ‘Butterfly’                       ….Available on Spotify

Mitchell Martin …. ‘I Can’t Stop Singing’ …. Available on Spotify



Special Episode- Embrace the Virus! Leading Through COVID-19.

Special Episode- Embrace the Virus! Leading Through COVID-19.

March 30, 2020

The COVID-19 Special Edition for Leaders. Ben and Tim reflect on the emerging global pandemic and discuss how leadership and decision-making frameworks can be applied to this situation to make some sense of the craziness going on around us. Sharing observations from contemporary business responses to the COVID-19 impacts, they take listeners through the five key lessons outline in their recent ‘Embrace the Virus’ thought leadership paper.



1:49           A great overview on the Cynefin framework from Dave Snowden and Mary Boone can be found here

4:30           ‘Probe-Sense-Respond’ methodology for complex environments, and its application to the COVID-19 situation

5:30           Chaotic environments – the pandemic is definitely showing elements of chaos

6:10           Observed limitations of many business continuity plans in the COVID-19 environment

8:20           The requirement for both immediate and longer-term planning

10:15         ‘Embrace the Virus’ can be read in full here

11:00         Leadership presence during the pandemic

11:15         Case study in leadership presence during crisis – Toll vs Norsk Hydro

16:20         Discussion on the key leadership elements we believe are crucial for success during the pandemic

17:35         The importance of record- and logkeeping

18:45         Strong and decisive – BUT not autocratic and nasty!

19:30         Empathy – for our staff….

20:15         ….and ourselves!

20:50         Balconies and dancefloors – the exhausting, but necessary, requirement for leaders to balance their time between the two

23:10         Emotional regulation, vulnerability, transparency and authenticity

25:00         The importance of communication – in, out, up and down!

25:45         Message transmitted does not necessarily mean message received

26:30         Mission Command – centralise your intent, decentralise your execution

28:15         No crisis without opportunity!         


** Final song, Dim the Lights by Mitchell Martin 



Mettle Thought Leadership on COVID:


Contact Us




The Externals …. Available on Spotify

Mitchell Martin …. Available on Spotify

S2E6- Mitchell Martin – The Next Ed Sheeran! But Better(er)

S2E6- Mitchell Martin – The Next Ed Sheeran! But Better(er)

March 26, 2020

Today it’s Mitchell Martin’s birthday! Literally! He is 23 years old today …. And he is making music like no one else. And by that, we mean half a million downloads on Spotify for a single song!

We first saw Mitchell at a music festival and followed his gigs over the next three days. We watched him carefully (not creepy- just like SAS guys do when in an observation post!). And found that this incredibly talented guy and his band were super humble.

Not very rock star!

But in this interview … we talk about following your bliss. Playing music and inspirations. And we have a good dose of Mitchell’s music in there too …. there's some stories of persistence and determination. 

And we end with a live acoustic set.

Also we do have the Mitchell and Ben ‘duet’ (... ok ok- apparently it’s called a ‘jam’)... that one is to come.  ;-)

Please pay the  equivalent cost of a cup of coffee to our musicians starting here:






Band Camp:



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 By: Mitchell Martin …. Available on Spotify


The Externals …. Available on Spotify


... the world is running out of these good blokes. So few of us left! 

S2E5- Alec Torelli: Life Lessons Learned from High Stakes Poker

S2E5- Alec Torelli: Life Lessons Learned from High Stakes Poker

March 19, 2020

Ever thought that poker was easy, glamorous and all about the money. Well this one is for you!

“This is business …. and this is investing”- Alec

Alec Torelli is a professional high stakes poker player, entrepreneur, and motivational speaker from California. Alec began playing poker in 2004 when he won $12!

It WAS US Dollars though!

At 21, Alec moved to Las Vegas. During his first World Series of Poker (WSOP), he finished 2nd. He then won back-to-back events at the Bellagio. The next summer, he placed 6th in the commemorative 40-year anniversary WSOP event, and then 4th in the World Poker Tour at the Bellagio.

Alec is the founder of 'Conscious Poker', a popular poker training platform. Alec has been spending the last 14 years making decisions for hundreds of thousands of dollars in a single hand. Now we dissect the anatomy of decision making to help others hone the way they make choices.

We talk: the role of luck in life, evaluating risk, maintaining a positive mindset, strengthening mental fortitude, handling adversity and setbacks, managing your bankroll and cultivating self-awareness.

And Alec's power song!? The Gambler perhaps?


 Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

0:00           Cha-ching!

00:30         How it all started

06:30         7 figures up and 7 figures down!

08:20         US rules mean Alec can’t play anywhere but he can in Australia!

10:30         Playing 4 … even 6 .. games at a time!

12:50         ‘Grinding a lot of poker’

15:40         ‘What will you do when you leave school’ – love Dad

16:15         Playing poker recreationally?

18:20         Monikers

21:50         The psychology of poker

24:30         Emotions…. And overcoming them

27:00         Rich amateurs v professionals

30:00         How do you overcome emotion/ and reset!

32:20         How to give advice to yourself

35:15         How to read someone eating broccoli

36:00         ‘Tells’….. and girls in coffee shops!

39:05         Wearing hats, sunglasses and headphones

42:45         Kipling wants to lose everything in one pitch and toss… and Alec’s thoughts!

44:10         Kipling’s point according to Alec.

46:00         Quick Questions/ Quick Answers….

53:40         Alec plays poker with Dan Bilzerian ... and the after party!

56:30         Kenny Rogers and Poker

57:00         Good v great poker players?





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 As Always by: The Externals …. Available on Spotify.

S2E4- Mark Wales: SAS Journeyman- Beyond Survivor to Tough Luxury……

S2E4- Mark Wales: SAS Journeyman- Beyond Survivor to Tough Luxury……

March 12, 2020

Mark Wales knows first-hand what happens when a Special Ops combat veteran designs a leather jacket. And also, how to find love on a reality TV show!

He’s a Special Operations Combat veteran. Boxer. CrossFit Regionals athlete. Ivy League MBA graduate.    McKinsey consultant.  Fashion designer. Entrepreneur.  Model.  Reality TV star. Father.  Husband.    

Mark Wales has fit a whole bunch of titles to his name, and he certainly doesn’t appear to be slowing down. 

In this episode, the conversation ranges from the tragic (losing a mate in combat) to the absurd (an inappropriately long discussion on bringing back leather pants). It takes us from Newman to New York; and provides insights working with McKinsey to redesign a cheese packet; and finding love on reality TV. But also, what traits Mark hopes to pass onto his son.  An absolute must-listen episode with an individual who continues to go – always – a little further.


Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

2:42           One of these kids is not like the others….. Ben and Mark talk CrossFit Regionals.  Tim (having never been to Regionals) is unable to contribute meaningfully.

5:35           Mark’s right of reply to being killed off during our Zombie Apocalypse episode with Mick Neven

6:33           Mark’s early years in rural Western Australia

8:10           Ben recalls the pinnacle of his military career – getting a ‘black jibber’ for academics as a cadet at the Australian Defence Force Academy

8:30           Mark’s first field exercise at the Royal Military College Duntroon – in which he accidentally attacks his own troops

9:35           Posted to the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Australian Regiment, in Townsville, Queensland prior to successfully completing SAS selection

10:55         Mark’s strategy to get off the selection course without shame

12:20         Mark’s time in SASR

15:15         Losing a mate in combat – and getting on with leadership while dealing with the impacts

19:15         Ramp ceremonies – farewelling a mate

22:50         Back to the Royal Military College – as an instructor

25:04         The motivation to get out of the Army and do an MBA – at Wharton!

30:40         The genesis of Kill Kapture – tough luxury!

31:40         Cost of goods: $1500.  Sale price:  $1000.  Not the endorsed Wharton pricing strategy

31:55         Coming up with the name “Kill Kapture”

33:40         Building the first jacket in New York’s garment district

35:20         Tough luxury – and taking inspiration from military uniforms

35:55         Out of Wharton and into McKinsey & Co

37:45         Taking on Australian Survivor

38:45         Reality TV – putting military Operational Security to shame!

40:40         Tim throws out some more spurious ‘facts’ (which turn out to be true – John Lapaglia is a medical doctor)

42:35         Celebrity models – former SecDef Jim Matthis in KillKapture

44:45         Seeing (now wife) Samantha Gash for the first time

47:20         Coming off the island – and catching back up with Sam

48:05         Now  - and to the future.  Corporate speaking roles and a new product launch

50:10         Tim and Ben reflect on their very brief period as watch brand ambassadors

50:55         The future of Kill Kapture

52:55         ….which may or may not include leather pants…..

53:40         Mark on leadership, resilience, PTSD – and opening up a little through his corporate speaking roles

56:05         Mark’s daily routine – doing the basics well

57:15         On fatherhood

1:01:20     Quick Question / Quick Answers – on luck, fashion, power songs and Mark’s coolest Army moments

1:05:45     The Cormack McCarthy quote Mark refers to: ‘“War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner” (from Blood Meridian)




Mark’s Corporate Speaking profile

Mark’s Survivor page


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By: The Externals …. Available on Spotify

S2E3 – Placing Explosive Charges on Glass Ceilings - Monika Georgieva

S2E3 – Placing Explosive Charges on Glass Ceilings - Monika Georgieva

March 6, 2020

Monika Georgieva was the first female to attempt Australian SAS selection …. twice! Monika was also Australia’s first female Infantry Officer, having commanded a Rifle Platoon and a Reconnaissance/ Sniper Platoon.

And before we start (or continue) to stereotype. Monika is around 5 foot 4 and has been 56kg at her heaviest! She has been called a ‘little girl’- but you’ll see that she is far from that!

What if we told you that being first wasn't important to her. She just 'pursues her bliss' (Ref: Greg Wallace episode).

Monika talks us through her amazing life – from gunfights in Bulgarian nightclubs, through boarding school in Scotland, to her ground-breaking military career and beyond.  In the process, she speaks to her motivational techniques, her (strange!) relationship with pain and how breaking paradigms is far less important to her than the simple act of going – always – a little further.


Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

03:18     The 98 Gym Podcast with Monika – a must-listen!

03:30     Mon’s early childhood in Bulgaria

04:26     UK Army recruiting – how to lose applicants!

06:40     First combat experience.  Age:8.  Location: Bulgarian Nightclub

08:47     Ben speaks on ‘complexiness’.  It’s a technical term…

09:40     Boarding school in Scotland

11:50     Tough love from Mon’s parents

14:00     To Canberra, where Mon recalls her Mooseheads years…

15:45     Life lessons from working in a pub

17:05     Mon’s time at the Royal Military College, Duntroon

18:20     Graduation to Artillery Corps as one of the first female officers – and more recruiting lies!

19:15     Corps transfer to logistics and a posting to Townsville

19:30     ….and straight onto Accelerated Infantry Training and Commando Selection

21:00     Physical preparation for selection

21:31     Mon’s bête noire – the 3.2km run!

24:20     The pressure of being the first – Imposter Syndrome and self-doubt

28:45     Tim’s single piece of advice for SAS selection

30:15     Ben and Tim struggle with maths.  Again.

32:30     Working with Kev Toonen to prepare for the second SAS selection course attempt

33:50     Extrinsic and intrinsic motivation for the course

34:20     Mon’s relationship with pain…and an out of body experience!

36:30     Tara Mohr and the two Hebrew words for fear

39:00     Breaking paradigms and glass ceilings (….is not something Mon cares about)

41:00     On being the first female infantry officer in the Australian Army

45:20     The importance of authenticity as a leader

50:30     Mon on leadership presence – ‘always own the ground you’re standing on’

51:42     Amy Cuddy on body language and power poses


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 By: The Externals…. Available on Spotify




S2E2- Row, Row, Row Your Boat, Gently Across the Pacific! - Heather Taylor

S2E2- Row, Row, Row Your Boat, Gently Across the Pacific! - Heather Taylor

February 28, 2020

Heather Taylor, our guest this week, is going a whole lot further – 4000km further to be precise! And in a rowboat! Heather is about to row from California to Hawaii and join only a handful of other humans who have made this incredible trek solo.  On the way, she will need to be prepared to face extremes of weather, the ever-present threat of bigger ships and perhaps even a dolphin stampede! 

Heather speaks to Tim and Ben about her boat, her kit, her preparation and how she finds inspiration and motivation to keep going through the countless hours alone, including through the power of 120 hours of Harry Potter audiobooks! And Season 1 of the Unforgiving60 podcast of course ;-)


Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

03:23     Heather’s first experience with rowing in high school in Canada

06:26     Making the decision to go solo

07:40     Risk assessing a row across the Pacific Oceans!

08:40     Tim’s assessment of the likelihood of an incident during the row – ‘Extreme’!

10:00     Some statistics on the row Heather is about to attempt

11:10     A two-week sprint out of California

12:45     Current records for the row

13:50     Heather’s daily routine during the row

15:40     What do you do for 100-odd days in the middle of the ocean?

16:00     Tim and Ben offer some ideas of audiobooks not to take on the trip

16:30     Heather describes her boat, facilities, rations and equipment

20:20     First aid kit and procedures

21:30     Navigation – primary and old-school backup!

22:00     Emergency procedures – and avoiding big ships

24:50     Anticipated wildlife encounters – watch out for the dolphin stampede!

25:30     Inside Heather’s head – the mental side of the row

27:30     Motivational techniques for going ‘a little further’ – and the importance of being kind to yourself

29:45     The power of faith for Heather

30:40     Funding the voyage

33:30     Heather’s literary inspirations

34:00     Heather’s accidentally dark high school poetry

35:00     Quick questions and quick answers (full disclosure – neither the questions or answers are quick!)

36:10     Heather’s fantastic distinction between happiness, joy and contentment

38:50     How to find out more about – and support! – Heather’s row

39:30     Heather’s fundraising partners



Heather’s website –  


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Call to Arms:

** If you are a charity or an emergency services or veteran owned small business (or know one!) don't forget to get in touch- we'd love to recognise your hard work and selflessness. 


S2E1- SAS Tactics to Fight the Apocalypse - with Mick Neven from the Apocalypse Comedy Podcast

S2E1- SAS Tactics to Fight the Apocalypse - with Mick Neven from the Apocalypse Comedy Podcast

February 20, 2020

It's the year 2100. How would SAS inspired tactics fight the Zombie Apocalypse? Mick Neven is 120 years old but still a comedic legend. He loves a good apocalypse and has a comedy show to prove it!

Zombies are descending. What's YOUR life choice!?!?


Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

  • 0:30. The Situation in the year 2100
  • 5:05. Welcome Mick Neven – Genius Mind & 'What do you have'?
  • 7:20. When running from the tiger when do you rest?
  • 8:30. From your childhood what do you bring?
  • 9:00. Ben and Tim’s biological relationship
  • 09:30. Mark Wales .... from Survivor....  Sux!
  • 12:20. Ben and Tim’s early story
  • 14:00. Talking SAS Selection
  • 20:15. Would you have ‘them’ in your workforce?
  • 22:15. Why Mick is in elite company!
  • 24:25. How Comedians are funny- from Mick (not Ben and Tim!).
  • 31:00. Australian v UK Comedy demand.
  • 42:00. Ben wants high tech stuff in the Zombie Apocalypse!
  • 44:30. Plans and the Zombies! Mick is sceptical!
  • 47:45. Mick’s skills are critical!!!!
  • 52:00. Mick thinks Ben and Tim can’t unite anyone!
  • 52:40. Cray fisherman
  • 56:45. What skills do we need in the apocalypse?
  • 58:00. Obstacle Planning
  • 1:04:00 Park runners we need you!!!
  • 1:05:30 Tim’s obstacle plan- “The Molasses Pit”
  • 1:06:00 How to kill with combine harvesters.,
  • 1:08:30 Tim takes a selfie on the edge of - “The Molasses Pit”. Doesn’t end well.
  • 1:11:30 Designing a “The Molasses Pit”.
  • 1:12:00 Farewells and pleasantries!



NEW Music from The Externals in this Episode.

Music from The Externals is available on Spotify.



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