The Unforgiving60
S1E26- General Jim Molan, AO, DSC - No Backward Step

S1E26- General Jim Molan, AO, DSC - No Backward Step

September 12, 2019

General Jim Molan, AO, DSC is a former soldier, diplomat, author and speaker. We explore all things from why 'Andrew' is called 'Jim' through to winning the war in Iraq, border security and national energy policy.

Of course we go low-brow too!

Jim has unfinished business in Australian politics. He explains why!

Unbeknownst to Jim, we personally selected 'General Jim's' close protection team leader in 2004.... and we have some inside information on General Jim! We share it too!

As always we continue to show learned insubordination to our highest ranking former military officer!

PS: Apologies for the audio quality ..... as you know we suck at podcasting! 



Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

  • 3:45. Speaking Tok Pisin! Papua New Guinean 'Tok Ples'. A Young Jim in the Pacific Islands Regiment.
  • 5:40. Jim gets warned!
  • 6:10. Tim talks Henry Kissinger!
  • 6:40. What Jim is most proud of.
  • 12:00. What Jim is least proud of.
  • 14:00. On styles of leadership. 
  • 17:40. Kipling's world.
  • 18:45. The human part of leadership.... and a lack of hubris.
  • 19:40. General Jim on East Timor.... what would he have done differently (hindsight)?
  • 21:41. Clausewitz and Jim. War is politics by other means.
  • 25:45. Is politics, war by other means?
  • 28:05. 2004 Iraq. Stories from Jim's SAS Close Protection Team Leader 
  • 33:00. 2004 Iraq (cont'd). When there is an SAS guy involved.... the walls have ears! Stories from the walls!
  • 36:39. Why Jim's SAS Close Protection Team didn't let him nap!
  • 38:15. Leadership advice to any junior leader
  • 44:25. The battlefield of politics. 
  • 49:25. The future of Jim in politics? Paraphrasing Churchill......
  • 50:00. On border security.
  • 52:40. On energy security.
  • 55:10. Quick Questions/ Quick Answers (kinda!).
  • 58:38. Who Jim invites to his dinner party (living or dead).
  • 1:01.00. The final say (and appropriately).


Music By:  The Externals    (as always!!!!)...... check them out on Spotify




@RV10 – On Susan Saleeba and Chris Collard, Servant Leadership, Psychopaths and Ben’s Leather Vest

@RV10 – On Susan Saleeba and Chris Collard, Servant Leadership, Psychopaths and Ben’s Leather Vest

September 5, 2019

As the RV concept hits the meteoric height of double figures, Ben and Tim talk about their interviews with Susan Saleeba and Chris Collard, reflecting on topics ranging from gentle African words to getting punched in the head by a world champion. 

They then field a number of fantastic listener questions, which sees the conversation switching from a discussion of arrogance and sociopathy straight to pondering who was the GOAT (greatest of all time) servant leader! 

Ben also speaks to some of his unfortunate historical fashion choices, including addressing allegations that he used to get around in a leather vest and a Mustang, while Tim talks about failure, foibles and regrets.

Amongst all this, the boys discuss a great new method of passing a little piece of goodwill to someone, through Phil Hayes-St Clair’s Be in Motion project.

And, in a departure from the normal The Externals outro music, Ben and Tim finish this RV with a very special recital of Banjo Patterson’s The Man From Snowy River from recent guest and all-round good guy Sans Tattoo.



social media: @unforgiving60    #unforgiving60 

S1E25- Chris Collard- No Barriers! From Jail to World Champion in 5 Years.

S1E25- Chris Collard- No Barriers! From Jail to World Champion in 5 Years.

August 22, 2019

Chris Collard is a world champion indigenous kickboxer and professional fighter. But it has not been an easy path. Chris spent his early years in and out of the juvenile justice system. Chris ‘celebrated’ his 18th birthday in prison BUT five years later he won his world title fight.

This is a story of inspiration- from a broken home to a happy home. A man wanting only to encourage belief in those who feel there is none.

Chris has over 70 professional fights across kickboxing, Muay Thai and pro boxing. He is also a three times Victorian middleweight boxing championship

And he’s also a bricklayer! Chris talks also about how being a brickie has been great for his fighting career.

With no role models and coming from a broken family this is also a story of tenacity and hard work. On how to turn your life around. It is a heart-warming interview with a man who now only wants to inspire and mentor those who may have started life like him….

“Fighting is like a game of physical chess. The best man with the best moves’ wins” – Chris

Breathing and mindfulness? No.

On visualizing the fight? No.

Pre-match rituals? No.

Footnote: Ben also got in the ring with Chris. He got punched a lot .… Ben that is! Marc Wohling (in Episode 23) talks about this fight, and describes Ben as looking like he was working out a puzzle. 


Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

  • 4:00. How, where and why it started.
  • 4:50. Chris’s recollection of his first ever fight in the ring.
  • 5:25. Chris’s tough upbringing.
  • 8:30. Chris’s professional record.
  • 12:30. That world title fight!
  • ‘He planted him like a tree!’ … Footage of that fight:
  • 16:40. That feeling of winning a world title
  • 18:50. How to work through pain.
  • 27:10. Chris’s next MMA fight.
  • 29:40. Being a role model.
  • 32:45. About being a bricklayer.. and the benefits!
  • 34:10. On fear, nerves and fighting.
  • 35:40. On breathing and mindfulness, visualizing the fight and pre-match rituals
  • 36:05. The Steve Dale fight… and Chris wearing silver sunnies:
  • 41:40. A Hypothetical Fight with Danny Green.
  • 42:20. A Hypothetical fight with Anthony Mundine.
  • 43:20. Chris’s toughest fight.
  • 43:35. Chris’s shortest fight.
  • 44:10. The one must do training exercise for boxers.
  • 47:10. Home life now in comparison to Chris’s upbringing.


Music by The Externals:  Song is Seven Brothers from the Album Bushranger Rock .... available on Spotify.

  • Hear our interview with The Externals on Episode 16.



S1E24- Susan Saleeba- All Give, No Take: Inspiring Hope for Kenyan Children

S1E24- Susan Saleeba- All Give, No Take: Inspiring Hope for Kenyan Children

August 8, 2019

In this episode we head into the depths of a Kenyan slum with Susan Saleeba. Susan is one of the most selfless people we have come across. She gave up her lifestyle to start Nakuru Hope's Orphanage in the slums of Kaptembwa, Nakuru, Kenya. She now has integrated an orphanage, school and farm to bring education, hope and a life to hundreds of kids…. who previously were literally living on piles of rubbish.

She left behind her idyllic lifestyle in Australia to pursue her purpose - or what our previous guest Greg Wallace has called – ‘following your bliss’.

This is an amazing story. Of joy and frustration and sadness. Of loss but also gain.

Life I feel tends to move quickly the older I get, or is it that I endeavour to pack so much in, as there is still so much to do?- Susan

And boys- Susan is single!!!!

Get involved in this great cause. Make a difference.


Music as always by....  The Externals.

@RV9- On Phil HSC & Sans Tattoo, Alaskan Real Estate Deals, Junior Leadership and Life without Consequences

@RV9- On Phil HSC & Sans Tattoo, Alaskan Real Estate Deals, Junior Leadership and Life without Consequences

August 5, 2019

There's plenty in this RV. Ben and Tim reflect on the episodes with Phil HSC and Sans Tattoo; as well as hearing from Phil HSC on Sans Tattoo! Then musings on the Cynefin framework and why hindsight isn't as great as people think it is!!

We then detour to LAX and meet Ben and Tim in the lounge discussing their trip to Alaska and Alaskan real estate deals!

Then what was taught in recent junior leadership workshops. Plus what about emotional contagion, imposter syndrome, Tim's thinking on micro leadership ..... and much more.

* Our question posed to all is: "What would you do today, if you knew you couldn't fail?"

* Who reads show notes anyway!?!? 

As always Music from The Externals.


S1E23- Marc Wohling- Movement is a Story

S1E23- Marc Wohling- Movement is a Story

August 1, 2019

This episode is a fire side chat. Literally! Marc Wohling discovered surfing, music and martial arts early in life. These three things gave him a pattern for life; but also a structure for loss. Working in remote communities and with underprivileged youth, Marc has been using techniques drawn from surfing, music and martial arts to teach, coach and mentor.

And Messr Sans Tattoo joins our chat by the fire.

In this episode we discuss Marc’s eclectic background and adventures. From West Timor, to the red dust of outback Australian aboriginal communities through to the best guitar rifts and then into the boxing ring. This is another great yarn.

And we conclude with a song from Marc’s band Handsome Frank ….


Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)



Website & Contact

Marc’s Blog:

Music by Handsome Frank (‘On Me’)

S1E22- Conversations with Mandela … and Subsequent Corporate Combat - Sans Tattoo

S1E22- Conversations with Mandela … and Subsequent Corporate Combat - Sans Tattoo

July 17, 2019

From bouncer to the boardroom. ‘Sans Tattoo’ is an ex-soldier and former bouncer who designed the fighting system that was taught to Nelson Mandela’s personal bodyguard.

But that’s the short version of a longer story.

In order to get there Sans dealt with months of rejection. He was out of money, but not out of belief, when he seized on one small opportunity. His fighting system has been used by many police and military units including the US FBI and 22 SAS (UK).

This interview is full of philosophical goodness. San’s recounts his interactions with President Mandela, and how he uses his knowledge, skills and experiences as a bouncer in his current career as a highly regarded professional speaker.

And unlike a lot of ex-Bouncers, Sans has studied post-graduate law and taught conflict resolution strategies to executives on five continents. Sans has shared the speaking stage with major identities that include former Australian Prime Minister John Howard, Olympic Gold Medallist Lauren Burns, and Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak.

Sans blends humour, hard facts and practical tools anyone can apply to reduce conflict and build trust. He also shares his resilience model with us that provides a toolkit on how to deal with the everyday stressors that we all confront in the ‘age of outrage’.

 ‘The common thread of successful people is discipline’- Sans Tattoo

 Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)

  • 2:30- Which is more difficult- being on a nightclub door or speaking to a corporate audience ?
  • 4:05- Sans’ endearing memories of Africa
  • 7:11- Dealing with rejection… and overcoming it
  • 10:12- ‘Entrepreneur’ by another name (in 1994)
  • 14:20- Being receptive to ritual dissent
  • 16:30- An anecdote about Nelson Mandela
  • 19:05- San’s first meeting with Nelson Mandela
  • 7 things you don’t know about Nelson Mandela (via BBC):
  • 21:50- Nelson Mandela’s advice on what a child owes a parent
  • 23:45- On stoicism
  • 28:10- Using combat techniques to deal with fear
  • 30:45- Sans outlines his ritual recitation before each keynote
  • 32:20- The importance of narrative and storytelling for leaders.
  • 34:26- Aesops Fable on video for kids:
  • 35:55- What are the secrets to communicating a good message?
  • 41:10- Education v Entertainment… which do you need?
  • 45:10- The evolution of the human species into a goldfish (our decreasing attention span)
  • Time Magazine Article on Attention Span:
  • 49:05- The Goldfish Series of Questions (Quick Questions/ Quick Answers)
  • 51:45- San’s Resilience Model (….. get your pens out!)
    • Mind
    • Body
    • Social
    • Global
  • 1:00:20- Is Sans Tattoo really Sans Tattoo?


Website & Contact


Music by The Externals available on Spotify




S1E21- The Entrepreneur’s Entrepreneur: From Little Things… with Phil HSC

S1E21- The Entrepreneur’s Entrepreneur: From Little Things… with Phil HSC

July 4, 2019

This episode is for anyone who dreams big …. And then wants to build that dream from scratch. It’s for anyone wanting to tenaciously solve a problem. This episode is for entrepreneurs and start-ups ….. and anyone working in a café wearing a hoodie! 

Phil Hayes- St Clair (HSC) is a career entrepreneur. With a shortened first career in the military, Phil has made his career turning kitchen table ideas into reality. Mentoring dozens or entrepreneurs himself, Phil also  teaches entrepreneurship to MBA candidates at Australia’s leading business school, the Australian Graduate School of Management at UNSW.

With a Bachelor of Science (Microbiology) from QUT and an MBA from AGSM, today Phil is CEO & Co-Founder of DROP Bio, a direct-to-consumer biotechnology venture. He is a Member of the Board of Directors at Sangui Bio and an Advisor at the BlueChilli HealthTech Accelerator for Southeast Asia.

Here's to start-ups! And here's how!

Seize your moment. Latch onto that chance!

Fill your Unforgiving Minute!


Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)


  • 02:45: The Early Years – Phil at Ben go to School.
  • 05:15: How Tim gets amused.
  • 08:15: How and why Phil got started as an entrepreneur … and why he didn’t give up when he failed the first time.
  • 11:00: About failing and moving on.
  • 15:15: The #Entrepreneur hashtag… isn’t it just #SmallBusiness?
  • 16:35: What you need to start! And scaling.
  • 19:30: What the motivation and enticement for being an entrepreneur?
  • 21:35: The critical importance on wanting to solve big problems.
  • 24:59: Why failure is necessary.
  • 28:00: Enticing capital into your start-up
  • 30:21: What new industries, sector or disciplines are investors looking to?
  • 31:45: Venture capital in the US versus Australia
  • 35:15: Making good entrepreneurs and celebrating successes (even if small)
  • 40:20: Phil tests Ben and Tim on their entrepreneurial skills inside the Unforgiving60 podcast:
    • Have you set yourselves up to learn quickly?
    • How would you rate yourselves on marketing and distribution?
    • Have you built a community around the U60 podcast brand?
  • 47:40: Tim (and Ben) throw down the challenge to Hamish and Andy!
  • 48:19: Having fun! ‘Humour is a free circuit breaker’- Phil HSC
  • 52:15: Quick Questions/ Quick Answers to Phil
    • What do you do for fun?
    • What’s your definition of success?
    • Definition of happiness?
    • Any sources of inspiration?
    • How does one become mentored by Phil HSC?
    • Why are you running in a weight vest?
    • What sort of writing does Phil do?
    • How can I give a shout out of encouragement to someone?
  • 57:45: Wider ramblings and other nonsense
    • What it’s like to meet Tim (from Ben)
    • The challenge (redux)


Website & Blog  

Podcast: Founder to Founder

Music by The Externals


** Opening Comments the Podcast by Lucy (age 13)

@RV8- On Jess Dane, Greg Wallace, Andrew Leigh’s Interview of Ben,  Art and Playing Music on Operations

@RV8- On Jess Dane, Greg Wallace, Andrew Leigh’s Interview of Ben, Art and Playing Music on Operations

June 28, 2019

Welcome to RV8!

Reflections on Jess Dane, 'Motorsports IS for Girls' .... and about authentic leadership as it trades off to the 'theatre of leadership'.

Greg Wallace, building 'More than Just a Surfboard'. Generosity of spirit and energy.

Then Ben's reflection on his favourite guest- himself! .... As he is interviewed by Andrew Leigh, MP.

And Tim begs forgiveness in using the audio of Ben's band playing on operations. Wider reflections on music and Ben recording a song in the bathroom of one of Saddam Hussein's palaces in Iraq. 

Lastly, some discussions on art and therapy.




* Music by The Externals.

Special Episode- On SAS Leadership, Elite Fitness and Why Specialisation is for Insects- Ben Pronk, DSC Interviewed by Andrew Leigh, MP (via The Good Life Podcast)

Special Episode- On SAS Leadership, Elite Fitness and Why Specialisation is for Insects- Ben Pronk, DSC Interviewed by Andrew Leigh, MP (via The Good Life Podcast)

June 20, 2019

This episode is a reciprocal interview where Ben is interviewed by Andrew Leigh, MP on his podcast The Good Life. You will will remember Andrew from our episode: 'The Tale of Two Andrews'.

Ben talks with Andrew about entering the Army, SAS Selection Course and broader life in the Unit as well as fitness and a slice of business. And of course, why specialisation is for insects. Also some beautiful reflections by Ben on what is important in life.

AND! In some Bonus Material: Tim also shares some audio from the battlefields of the Middle East that is relevant to Ben. Listen until the end of the episode.