Two ex-special operations guys armed with MBAs seek out people leading lives less ordinary, in order to find out how they fill their ‘unforgiving minutes’, and what helps them go, always, a little further. Like intellectual bowerbirds, we collect shiny little objects of knowledge that will help build better humans. Co-hosted by Ben Pronk and Tim Curtis.
Episodes
Thursday Jan 28, 2021
Thursday Jan 28, 2021
Ben and Tim have now survived two seasons without getting cancelled! (Full disclosure – no-one pays us, so we can’t really get cancelled!).
In this final episode for the second season, Tim and Ben reflect on our recent discussions with Simon ‘Hawks’ Hawken and Anthony ‘Harry’ Moffitt, as well as a whole bunch of excellent listener questions and feedback – including a veritable library worth of outstanding books that we haven’t read!
As always, please let us know what you think. We’d love to hear from you – please email debrief@unforgiving60.com.
See you for Season 3!
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
02:19 Reflections on Hawks turning the microphone back on us! If you haven’t already, check out H Hour with Hawks.
03:00 How a good platoon sergeant can save a bright young officer from themselves
06:45 Reflections on our chat with Harry Moffitt – and his newly released book 11 Bats
08:00 Harry’s background as a rock star
09:30 Moff’s ‘Three Things’ – family, professional life and creative outlet
11:30 In case you came in late, check out Harry’s song-writing prowess by listening to The Externals – or, as they once said on the back of a band t-shirt ‘brush off the sand and get a can in your hand with The Externals’
12:00 Musical Interlude – ‘Edge of the World’
13:10 Listener feedback and questions
16:00 Ben ponders on the one difference between Richard Baker’s award-winning podcasts and the Unforgiving60
17:40 A fantastic question from Adam on military planning – and the difference between logic and process
21:20 Listener additions to our recommended reading list
24:30 A great question from Steve on resilience
28:30 Ben and Tim talk about their resilience survey – a key component of their ongoing resilience research. Head to this link to check it out for yourself!
32:00 The Aussie Rucking Club – pack marching for fun! Check them out on Insta
Music
The Externals … Available on Spotify
Atlas Chasers…..Available on Spotify
Thursday Jan 21, 2021
Thursday Jan 21, 2021
Anthony 'Harry' Moffitt spent more than twenty years in the SAS. His multiple tours into East Timor, Iraq and Afghanistan plus counter terrorist duties were coupled with his other love - cricket! He took a cricket bat on every one of his major overseas operational tours and had them signed by the most incredible groups of people. In this episode Harry talks passionately about his beloved SAS, tempo, tragic loss and trauma and the need for us to have wider life balance.
Harry is also a registered psychologist and we talk about what he knows now …. that he wished he knew back then. We talk compassion and self care as well as high performance mindsets and leadership!
His new book is 'Eleven Bats'! Get involved in it- it's a ripping yarn!
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
04:07 Harry’s first bat into Afghanistan …. And the Taliban’s opinion on his cricket ability!
06:30 Suicide bomber in Tarin Kowt. Harry responds to civilian deaths.
10:30 The psychology and philosophy of soldiering.
14:10 Rumination (not good) …. And debriefing (good). The circle of hate.
16:00 Harry’s experience on the power of debriefs.
17:00 The importance of creative practices, meditation and mindfulness…. Moff’s opinion
18:30 Harry’s ‘three things’- why we should all have three things!
20:15 The importance of Harry’s cricket club
22:20 Harry gets blown up by a roadside bomb which killed Signaller Sean McCarthy…. And Harry was driving. He tells the story.
25:45 Harry talks about blaming himself for Sean’s death. Incessantly. And then realising the problem with the inner commentator.
30:30 Harry gets ‘a third quarter spray’ about his own negativity.
31:20 The Commentator is a fraud….
32:30 Harry gets in touch with Sean’s parents…. How that went.
34:30 Harry’s most memorable cricket bat… in Timor Leste.
40:00 Why black and white isn’t right.
42:40 Harry’s initiative on his passion for educating soldiers… enter the Wanderers Education Programme.
46:50 Ben’s experience about the Programme when he was the Commanding Officer.
51:10 Harry’s thinking about leadership ….. how to lead through complexity.
54:15 Out of all things …. what is Harry most proud of?
57:41 End with some new Music from The Externals (teaser) for Life on the Line Podcast!
Music
Thanks to all our artists who allow us use of their music. In this episode:
The Externals – available on Spotify
Contact Us
PS: Go and give us a comment n Apple Podcasts ya mug! Do it... doooo it !!!(now)
Thursday Jan 14, 2021
Thursday Jan 14, 2021
S2E27b – H Hour with Hawks – An Interview with Ben and Tim
Part B of the interview by Simon Hawken (‘Hawks’) with Ben and Tim. Hawks had the misfortune of working for Tim and then Ben in a light infantry battalion in Townsville. Hawks knows them well and so it makes sense that this would turn the interview around and have him interview Ben and Tim.
We talk families and fathers. Joining the military and their days as junior officers in a light infantry battalion. It’s the personal stories of Ben and Tim as they reminisce.
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
01:13 Tim’s first impressions of the SAS.
04:12 Tim’s operational tour in Sierra Leone.
09:30 Raising the East Coast Counter Terrorist capability.
10:50 Ben’s first impressions of the SAS.
14:00 Challenges of a high-performance environment and into seizing the MV TAMPA.
19:00 The SAS Squadron heads Into Papua New Guinea.
36:00 Caring for soldiers on the modern battlefield.
41:00 Allegations against the SAS…. more discussion.
49:50 Ben talks about being the Commanding Officer of the SAS…. what it was like.
52:00 Life after uniform- Tim into Afghanistan and Dubai.
1:00:00 Ben’s time in a full time MBA
1:01:30 How Ben and Tim re-joined forces in Mettle Global.
1:05:50 Ben and Tim’s differences.
1:07:00 Ben and Tim’s philosophies in business and about business and life.
1:09:00 Page 1 of the Prospectus…. What’s the yardstick and point of calibration?
1:11:00 Talking deeper on life’s philosophies.
1:15:30 Talking COVID strategies and insights on crisis management.
1:19:50 Hawks ask: ‘What would you do over if there is anything that you could change?’
1:24:00 Hawks provide his debrief on Ben and Tim
Music
Thanks to all our artists who allow us use of their music. In this episode:
The Externals – available on Spotify
Thursday Jan 07, 2021
Thursday Jan 07, 2021
Simon Hawken (‘Hawks’) had the misfortune of working for Tim and then Ben in a light infantry battalion in Townsville. Hawks knows them well and so it makes sense that this would turn the interview around and have him interview Ben and Tim.
We talk families and fathers. Joining the military and their days as junior officers in a light infantry battalion. It’s the personal stories of Ben and Tim as they reminisce.
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
02:50 About Ben’s Dad (Henk) … an army helicopter pilot.
09:30 The SAS and how they deal with tough times post the Brereton Report.
12:00 Henk Pronk’s philosophies that live on through Ben.
14:30 About Tim’s Dad (Rod) …. a former CO of the SAS and Brigadier.
26:30 Ben and Rod’s paths cross as CO SAS and the Colonel Commandant of the SAS.
29:10 Did their fathers influence their joining the Army?
31:20 Tim Robertson- the ex F18 pilot who did SAS Selection. Season 1 episode with Robbo is here.
38:00 Childlike curiosity and risk…. vulnerability is OK.
40:00 Hawks can still order Ben and Tim around.
46:30 Heading to the Australian Defence Force Academy and the Royal Military College, Duntroon.
48:30 Different academic results! And fraternisation as well as being absent without leave (AWOL).
54:00 Graduating and life in the Infantry Battalion as young officers. What it was like to take over as a Platoon Commander.
1:04:00 Ben thinks he is smarter than his senior officers!
1:12:21 Hawks and serving with Tim and then Ben…. And then SAS Selection.
1:16:00 End with some music from The Externals!
Music
Thanks to all our artists who allow us use of their music. In this episode:
- The Externals – available on Spotify
Thursday Dec 31, 2020
Thursday Dec 31, 2020
As usual, Ben and Tim have not been invited to any cool New Years parties, so instead bring you this special RV where they talk all things 2020 including COVID, crisis management – and a book about resilience!
And we promise guests next week!
As always, please let us know what you think. We’d love to hear from you – please email debrief@unforgiving60.com.
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
01:00 Broad reflections on 2020. Not much happened….
02:45 COVID-19 and crisis management – throw out the textbook and start thinking!
05:30 No improvement noted over 2020 in Ben and Tim’s skills with Zoom….or podcasting
07:00 But 2020 did provide a bit more time for them to collate their thoughts on resilience – in a book!
07:50 The downside of getting a publishing contract – you actually have to write the book!
08:15 The backstory to The Resilience Shield – the book written by Ben, Tim and Dr Dan Pronk (aka The 70kg D*ckhead)
10:45 Ben’s ego-related experiences through the writing process
12:00 Editors – very useful!
14:00 Resilience, and the importance of balance
16:50 The Resilience Survey
20:20 2020 Book reviews (proper books, not the one we wrote)
Music
The Externals … Available on Spotify
Thursday Dec 24, 2020
Thursday Dec 24, 2020
Musing and reflections on Louise Baxter and Daniel Keighran, VC
And a Merry Christmas to all from us at the Unforgiving60 Podcast
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
01:30 Louise Baxter….. the summary
03:10 What if your kids went to school in hospital…. Being that ill!
04:00 Silliness….. and Captain Starlight
05:30 The Case Study- Nathan Cavaleri. More on Nathan here
06:45 Leaders don’t need to have all the answers … it’s OK if you don’t!
09:05 Daniel Keighran, VC…. the summary
11:00 Vehicles for guys to talk
11:45 Summary of Dan’s career
13:05 How Dan writes the book- our judgment
14:10 The VC action & Dan’s motivation
15:00 Life after army
18:00 Questions and feedback from listeners
19:30 A new poem from a listener
20:45 More thoughts on SAS Selection
25:30 Holly Barratt- professional swimmer
As always, please let us know what you think! We’d love to hear from you – please email debrief@unforgiving60.com.
Music
The Externals … Available on Spotify
Nik Kali ….Available on Spotify
Thursday Nov 19, 2020
Thursday Nov 19, 2020
Three interviews with three amazing guests, covering a range of topics that take us from the benefits of meditation, through the battlefields of Rwanda and Afghanistan and all the way to the Australian Stock Exchange. Our discussion with Gary Gorrow was incredibly thought-inspiring and re-affirmed our belief in the positive benefits of meditation – we reflect on this, and chat talk about Tim’s experiences with meditation, mindfulness and breathing. We look back on our discussion with Wayne Jones and how he has managed to successfully translate his decades of operational experience into his current role as the CEO of an ASX-listed company. And finally, we revisit our interview with Coco Quirke, an amazingly inspirational human being, who survived dying three times to appreciate life all the more.
Enjoy!
As always, please let us know what you think! We love hearing from you – just email debrief@unforgiving60.com.
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
02:30 Tim’s journey into meditation…and reflections on our interview with Gary Gorrow
05:10 Discussion on some of the emerging scientific research on the positive brain-changing effects of meditation
06:00 The link between meditation, mindfulness – and breathing, including discussion of James Nestor’s Breath
10:00 Wayne Jones – champion. And a great episode
12:00 Is Wayne the first ex-SAS person to be CEO of an ASX-listed company? Let us know.
14:20 Wayne’s experience at the Kibeho massacre – and how he dealt with witnessing the worst of humankind
17:08 …and on Tongue Charge, the band in which Ben and Wayne played together
20:43 Reflections on McQuilty ‘Coco’ Quirke NSC – amazing combat medic and IED blast survivor
22:14 Coco’s ability to lead in chaos – without rank
24:00 Coco’s work with veteran-founded charity and mental health resource Swiss8
27:25 Outro song: Edge of the World, a cracking Externals tune, written in honour of lead singer Moff’s dad. Check it out on Spotify
External Links
- Swiss8 - Check out their Remembrance Day ‘BBQ to Remember’ and their app
Music
The Externals … Available on Spotify
Thursday Nov 12, 2020
Thursday Nov 12, 2020
Quotable Quote: “Turns out if you give someone something to shoot at .... they start shooting at it!”- Dan
****
Continuing with Part B of our interview with Daniel Keighran, VC.
NB: We recommend listening to Part A first as it is an incredible scene setter.
****
In this 2nd episode we talk about the action in Afghanistan where Dan was awarded the Victoria Cross for Australia. His version of events and what he thinks looking back at his actions.
For his role in the action at the Battle of Derapet the citation for the Victoria Cross reads:
‘For the most conspicuous acts of gallantry and extreme devotion to duty in action in circumstances of great peril’.
We then talk discharge from the Army in 2011, when Dan commenced work in the mining industry. Initially working in exploration drilling throughout Western Australia and then as an underground shotfirer (blaster) in a gold mine outside of Kalgoorlie.
It was in his cottage in Kalgoorlie that he received notification that the Chief of Army was coming to visit him. In the tiny lounge at Kalgoorlie Airport, the Chief of Army handed him an envelope…. The contents of that envelope would change his life.
In 2015, Dan returned to his home state of Queensland and completed his MBA- we talk about this and life with a VC, but beyond the military.
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
01:30 Dan’s back again in Afghanistan…. Early days and the ‘42 Northing’
05:00 A deliberate decision on risk that they knew would mean contact
06:20 Mentoring the Afghan National Army
08:08 Green on blue attacks
10:10 Crossing the 42 Northing! And what happens next!?
13:20 Troops in Contact
14:45 Dan’s first thoughts and actions in that contact
16:20 Dan send his first radio communications to his Platoon Commander
18:25 How Dan identified enemy positions to enable fire to be brought to bear
20:30 Friendly casualties – Crash gets shot.
Targets from 50-500 metres.
22:45 The situation has fundamentally changed …. And what Dan does then!
24:00 What Dan wasn’t fearful about.
27:20 The hardest thing that Dan had to do that day.
29:45 Out of Afghanistan. Reflections. What was the ‘why’?
32:00 And out of the Army (shortly thereafter).
32:50 Into Kalgoorlie ….. and into mining. Dan’s transition out of the Army.
36:45 General Morrison calls Dan in Kalgoorlie.
38:40 General Morrison arrives in Kalgoorlie…. And Dan is handed ‘that envelope’.
How you find out that you have been nominated for the Victoria Cross.
40:30 Life starts to change…. And Mum’s response.
41:45 Cowboy’s (Dad’s) rig at Government House.
44:00 Public relations for Dan. How did it sit with him?
47:45 Dan is offered a position on the Board of the Australian War Memorial.
50:00 Higher education ….. that Dan hadn’t really thought about.
52:30 Dan’s MBA and its relationship with the book, ‘Courage Under Fire’.
54:30 Why Dan didn’t write his book earlier.
55:00 The supportive nature of other VC recipients. Advice from Mark Donaldson, VC
56:20 ‘This will change your life’- David Morrison said. How has it?
Quotable Quote: “If you give someone something to shoot at they start shooting at it!”- Dan
Music
Thanks to all our artists who allow us use of their music. In this episode:
The Externals – available on Spotify
Thursday Nov 05, 2020
Thursday Nov 05, 2020
Daniel Keighran, VC was born in Nambour, and grew up in Lowmead; a small town approximately 80km from Bundaberg in regional Queensland. His upbringing was anything but normal; Dan describes it as ‘pretty rough’, with a loving mother but an absent father challenging his teen years and where his one male constant was his Grandfather- himself a World War II veteran.
Indeed, the first-person Dan ever saw shot was his father.
Dan then enlisted in the Australian Army at 17 and served his country for 11 years seeing operational service in East Timor, Iraq and Afghanistan. He was awarded the Victoria Cross for Australia for his role in the action at the Battle of Derapet. The citation for the Victoria Cross reads:
‘For the most conspicuous acts of gallantry and extreme devotion to duty in action in circumstances of great peril’.
In 2011, Dan discharged from full-time Army service and commenced work in the mining industry. Initially working in exploration drilling throughout Western Australia and then as an underground shotfirer (blaster) in a gold mine outside of Kalgoorlie.
It was in his cottage in Kalgoorlie that he received notification that the Chief of Army was coming to visit him. In the tiny lounge at Kalgoorlie Airport, the Chief of Army handed him an envelope…. The contents of that envelope would change his life.
In 2015, Dan returned to his home state of Queensland and completed his MBA- we talk about this and life with a VC, but beyond the military.
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
00:00 Dan Keighran’s citation for his award of the Victoria Cross
06:00 What an opening line to Dan’s new book! A sizzling start!
06:40 Dan talks about his Dad, Mum and Grandfather- including on the topic of love in the family.
11:30 Dan’s discussion with his Grandfather on service.
14:30 Stories from the family ‘home’ at Lowmead ….. basic and hard living, that would prepare him well for life in the infantry!
17:00 Comparing life as a kid…. to life in the military…..
17:50 Impressions on joining the Army- why yelling Corporals, long hours and sleeping in the dirt didn’t phase Dan!
19:30 Dan joins the 6th Battalion of The Royal Australian Regiment.
20:13 1st deployment into East Timor ....
23:03 2nd deployment into Iraq ….
25:15 Under fire in Iraq.
27:29 Improvised explosive devices versus direct fire.
29:44 What it’s like to be blown up by a roadside bomb…..
30:10 Into Afghanistan to support the Special Operations Task Group
32:15 Dan explains the tempo of special operations
Music
Thanks to all our artists who allow us use of their music. In this episode:
The Externals – available on Spotify
Tuesday Nov 03, 2020
Tuesday Nov 03, 2020
The Australian Podcast Awards just announced their finalists..... and we are not one of them.
Here's our 'not winning submission'..... and incidentally, we thought it was quite good.
That said, you can still vote for us in the Listeners Choice Award:
https://australianpodcastawards.com/vote
(Submissions were capped at 15 minutes.... and it was very difficult picking the three episodes as every guest has been amazing).
Intelligence Summary
- 00:00- 7:00. SAS Tactics to Beat the Zombies with Mick Neven
- 07:00- 10:20. Alyssa Azar, Summiting Everest
- 10:20- 15:00. Rod Bridge.... Losing a Son
*End music by Atlas Chasers