Two ex-special operations guys armed with MBAs seek out people leading lives less ordinary, in order to find out how they fill their ‘unforgiving minutes’, and what helps them go, always, a little further. Like intellectual bowerbirds, we collect shiny little objects of knowledge that will help build better humans. Co-hosted by Ben Pronk and Tim Curtis.
Episodes
Thursday Aug 06, 2020
Thursday Aug 06, 2020
Rick Pedley-Smith is a good man. And, through his selfless work in developing and running the Rite of Passage Boys’ Program, he’s helping to make more good men. Rick began his career in 1997 as a classroom teacher in Sydney before heading to the UK where he worked as a classroom teacher and outdoor education coordinator for an ‘Emotional & Behavioural Disorder Unit’ in West London.
Then for the past 16 years, Rick has worked at one of Sydney’s largest high schools.
The Rite of Passage Boys’ Program is Rick’s initiative which aims to re-engage and support boys who are considered ‘at-risk’. Through the program, the team conducts overnight camps, treks and challenges to help develop resilience, self-esteem and a culture of positive masculinity. His program utilises physical as well as social and emotional challenges to develop self-awareness and a sense of purpose in the boys.
As part of this, Rick has implemented numerous wellbeing initiatives that have led the community to raise over $19,000 for the Commando Welfare Trust and for villages along the Kokoda Track.
In this chat, Ben and Tim explore how Rick came to start Rite of Passage, and his intent to re-appropriate the concept of initiation into manhood. He describes the development of the program, tells some amazing stories of the successful outcomes that have been achieved and talks to the very deliberate steps they have put in place to avoid the program creating an exclusionary ‘boys club’.
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
04:00 Rick’s background, growing up in the Southern Highlands of NSW and getting into teaching
07:40 Working in the UK with troubled children
09:50 How full is your balloon? A great thought experiment that Rick uses to highlight the cumulative impacts of stress
14:00 What emotions do most teenage boys feel they can show? (Spoiler alert: vulnerability is not one of them)
15:50 The importance of not confusing kindness with weakness
17:00 The Rite of Passage program
18:00 Imposter Syndrome as a parent (we’ve all been there!)
19:45 The term ‘rite of passage’ and its relevance in the modern world
22:00 Influence from a mutual friend - Fenno
24:05 ‘True leaders don’t create followers, they create more leaders’
25:30 How Rick designed his program….and the importance of physicality as a component
28:50 The importance of debriefing within the Rite of Passage program
31:10 How to create a ‘band of brothers’ without it turning exclusionary or toxic
35:50 Positive flow-on effects from the program into wider schoolwork
39:20 The role of literature in Rite of Passage – Kipling and Heinlein; great stuff!
43:45 The importance of empathy within the concept of manhood
45:00 Recommended reading within the program, including Mark Donaldson VC’s The Crossroad – and Mark’s involvement in the program
47:40 The importance of showing boys what a good man looks like – particularly for children who may never have seen one up close
51:10 How are fathers responding to the program?
54:15 The Rite of Passage association with the Australian Commando Association
56:00 Rick’s definition of success for the program
58:40 How to find out more about Rick and the Rite of Passage program (see below)
External Links
- Rick’s bio
- Rick’s Facebook page
- Some additional information on Rite of Passage
Music
The Externals … Available on Spotify (plus a bit of Ben’s guitar work, recorded in the bathroom of one of Saddam’s palaces in Tikrit, Iraq!)
Contact Us @ the Unforgiving60 Podcast!
Thursday Jul 30, 2020
Thursday Jul 30, 2020
Steve Biddulph is one of the world’s best-known parent educators. Steve has been a psychologist for 30 years and his books have sold over four million copies as well as having been translated into 31 languages.
Ben and Tim talk with Steve about their own transformations after reading his books and talk the differences between raising boys and raising girls.
As well as plenty of good old-fashioned hugging. It’s alright to be affectionate peeps!
Listen in then try a few of Steve’s practical techniques.
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
04:50 Steve talks about how and why he got into psychology…. You’ll be surprised.
08:30 Initial interest in the psychology of men and boys and family therapy (at age 24). And watching Dad’s struggling to parent.
11:33 Raising Boys - the End Product. What makes a good man?
14:45 Tim tells his story about how Steve’s book changed his relationships.
20:30 Tim keeps talking about hugging blokes.
21:30 Steve talks about a generation that is ‘thawing out’.
26:30 How different is this generation of children?
30:45 On traumatic stress and cumulation. Advice for parents.
31:00 The importance of rest and restoration as a family.
33:33 On mothers and sons (and Celia Lashlie’s work and book) … and that book is here .
38:45 Boys start off in Mum’s world … and then re-orientates.
41:00 About mentors for boys and building a bundle of masculinity.
45:50 Raising Girls- What’s the difference?
47:30 Girls sensitivity to social cues… and what the advertisers know and how they exploit it.
49:22 Steve on why the world is mistreating girls.
50:30 Feminism and all its gains are in jeopardy. Social media, mirrors, internet and TV.
52:00 Hyenas are stalking our girls.
52:45 Pornography and kids.
58:00 How can we parent more resilient kids?
1:00:00 What about corporal punishment?
1:03:15 Modern boundaries.
1:04:25 Closing words of advice of things to do with our sons and daughters. Changing the dynamic.
External Links
Music
By Mitchell Martin … 'Beautiful' and 'Be Myself' ... Available on Spotify
Thursday Jul 23, 2020
Thursday Jul 23, 2020
Tim and Ben have previously drawn extensively on Dave Snowden’s material as a means of sense-making in complex environments. And here he is in person (virtually). In particular, Snowden’s Cynefin (pronounced ‘kin-ev-in’) framework has proven consistently to be an incredibly useful and intuitive sense-making tool for leaders in all contexts.
In the period of heightened COVID-19 risk it has been highly instructional to the management teams that Tim and Ben work with.
In this episode, Dave joins us from the UK and speaks to not only Cynefin, but also complexity.
BYO notebook for the knowledge from this one!
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
03:20 Dave and Ben’s first meeting at the SAS Regiment back
04:00 Dave provides an overview of his Cynefin framework
04:50 The domains – simple, complicated, complex and chaotic
09:20 Leading in complex environments – parallel probes
11:25 Every intervention into a complex system fundamentally changes it
12:00 ‘Nudges’ towards ‘adjacent possibles’ – stepping stones towards better results. An alternative to trying to predict the future
13:45 The key to operating in complexity – know where you are and the rough direction you want to head
14:20 What can you control in a complex system?
17:00 Negative boundaries – teaching through failure, not success
18:20 Commander’s Intent – ‘metaphorical examples with counter-factuals’ – Dave’s Gettysburg example, taken from his time at DARPA
22:25 Are contemporary Western militaries doing ‘mission command’ well?
23:25 The Black Lives Matter protests through a Cynefin lens
27:00 Using ‘trios’ to validate decision-making in complexity
28:45 Neuroplasticity and its impacts in various stages in life
32:20 Why Dave got thrown out of the Pentagon
34:50 Human-mediated wargames: ‘far more malicious’
36:30 Ben on the benefits of Dave’s visit to the Australian SAS in 2009
39:00 Dave’s work with Peter Drucker
40:00 COVID-19 as a ‘Black Elephant’ – a cross between a Black Swan and the elephant in the room
43:15 The importance of narrative and storytelling
48:10 Using anecdotes to increase resilience
50:20 The importance of experience in training
51:30 COVID-19 – who got it right: the economists or the doctors?
52:30 Dave’s prognosis for contemporary political leadership
External Links
- Dave’s company website Cognitive Edge
Music
The Externals … Available on Spotify (plus a bit of Ben’s guitar work, recorded in the bathroom of one of Saddam’s palaces in Tikrit, Iraq!)
Thursday Jul 16, 2020
Thursday Jul 16, 2020
Phil M Jones is one of the world’s best salespersons. But Phil admits that his success is related to his ability to only do three things. Phil’s started understanding ‘the art of sales’ with a car wash at the age of 14 when he discovered he was earning more than his school teachers. So, as a result he limited his time going to school!
Phil was the youngest Sales Manager in the history of UK fashion retailer Debenhams. He then worked with UK Premier League Football Clubs on negotiating sponsorships and licensing agreements, to then being a key part of growing a £240 million property business.
Phil has delivered over 2,500 presentations in 57 countries across five continents, training more than two million people to learn how to have more influence, confidence and control when steering their conversations.
He has written multiple best-selling books with his book 'Exactly What to Say' being the #1 most listened to book on Audible, with over 700,000 copies sold and having been translated into 29 other languages.
Also check out the video version of the interview on YouTube.
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
- 03:00. About Phil and car cleaning business at age 14 years old.
- 04:15. The youngest even sales manager at Debenhams and beyond….
- 05:00. 2008 was a pivot point for Phil’s keynote speaking.
- 05:55. Phil’s success is related to his ability to only do three things.
- 08:50. Success in selling anything is…..
- 11:15. About ‘motivation’ in leading, influencing or selling.
- 12:00. Sales or Business Development?
- 13:00. Phil turns the interview around.
- 17:20. Sales requires courage. And what about telling a story?
- 22:00. The most important thing to the person you are talking to.
- 23:20. Phil’s example of a professional icebreaker introduction.
- 26:45. Phil’s story of a pen…. Shifting motivation and desire.
- 30:10. Is it OK to manipulate people through the sales process?
- 32:45. The theatre of leadership…. Being on stage. How?
- 36:55. Using the room as a prop. Phil’s room… right now!
- 48:50. Dealing with sales rejection and failures.
- 52:22. The ‘persistent’ sales person. Is there a place for it?
- 1:00:50. Quick Questions/ Quick Answers.
More on Phil: www.philmjones.com
Phil’s Social Media:
Music
All music courtesy of The Externals including the end track: ‘The Day The Sun Forgot To Shine’ …. available on Spotify
Contact Us
Thursday Jul 09, 2020
Thursday Jul 09, 2020
Kim Martens is a high-risk expert in intelligence and security risk management who has worked extensively in hostile environments. She has been attacked by rockets, mortars and improvised explosive devices in Iraq. She’s even hard core enough to even have proposed to her love in Iraq! And then stood beside that same fiancée after he was later blown up in Iraq.
After her first career in the police Kim was one of the first female close protection operators into Iraq. She then worked with the United Nations and the Australian Diplomatic Mission in Iraq before returning to Australia as an analyst.
We talk KFC and falling in love at KFC, cars, policing and the gold town of Kalgoorlie. Then into Iraq and being attacked on the infamous
Kim has a Bachelor of Counter Terrorism, Security and Intelligence, a Postgraduate Certificate in Intelligence and Terrorism and a Postgraduate Certificate in Intelligence Management / Islamic Studies.
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
- 03:00. About Kim
- 05:00. Wanting to be a police officer ….. but leaving home at 15 years old to work at KFC
- 06:20. Rockingham cars. Strictly V8.
- 08:12. Romance can blossom in a KFC.
- 09:20. Joining the Police (at last …. 7 years later!).
- 11:20. Into the gold town of Kalgoorlie.
- 13:30. Headbutted in Kalgoorlie. And an apology.
- 14:00. Heading into Iraq.
- 16:25. Learning in Iraq…. And falling in love.
- 18:30. How to propose to a guy in Iraq.
- 21:04. Out to Karrada District in Baghdad.
- 22:20. Another female close protection operator is discovered in Baghdad!
- 24:00. Advice on female operators in high risk environments.
- 28:00. Kim talks about ‘imposter syndrome’ and overcoming it.
- 29:00. Kim is attacked on Route Irish (Airport Road) in Baghdad.
- 31:30. Kim’s fiancée is hit by a vehicle borne improvised explosive device (VBIED).
- 37:45. The value of study to complement Kim’s practical experience.
Music
Spacers are Ben Pronk recorded live in Baghdad …
The Externals, Anastacia’s Hand …. available on Spotify
Contact
Social Media:
Thursday Jul 02, 2020
Thursday Jul 02, 2020
Dr Linda Monshizadeh is a refugee (and triplet!) who spent her early childhood in Iran before her family moved to Australia. She excelled at school and ended up studying medicine, later specialising in plastic surgery.
In this episode, Linda talks about plastic surgery and her specialty – cranio-maxillofacial surgery – before reflecting on the overemphasis being placed on physical beauty in today’s society, exacerbated by social media. Linda provides an amazing perspective on ‘selfie dysmorphia’ and how it’s resulting in people seeking surgical intervention to try to look more like a filtered social media photo.
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
02:50 Linda’s childhood – as a refugee and triplet!
04:00 Why Linda’s family left Iran
05:00 A year in Pakistan, then to Australia
06:45 The drawbacks of learning English from black and white cowboy movies!
10:00 On being a triplet (spoiler alert: they can’t actually read each other’s minds!)
12:00 Moving West
12:50 Acceptance into medicine
14:50 The secret for success at medical school – consistency and discipline
15:50 Ben tries to get a free plastic surgery consultation – for Tim!
16:20 The origins of plastic surgery, during World War One
20:30 Linda’s medical training
23:15 Why Linda chose her specialty – cranio-maxillofacial surgery
24:00 The overemphasis of physical beauty in today’s society
24:30 The fine line between restoration and enhancements for plastic surgeons
28:20 The rising scourge of ‘selfie dysmorphia’
32:00 On ego
37:10 Plastic surgery and cosmetic surgery – the important difference
43:00 Ben and Tim show their age – and their ignorance – by asking if the surgical procedure in the 1997 movie Face/Off is possible. Disappointingly, it is not.
43:22 Linda’s art and her generous donations in support of the Royal Australian Navy Clearance Diver Trust
47:00 An example of Linda’s incredible art
53:45 Quick Questions / Quick Answers
External Links
- Linda’s Instagram page
- The Australian Navy Clearance Diver Trust
Music
The Externals … Available on Spotify
Thursday Jun 25, 2020
Thursday Jun 25, 2020
Beth Eggleston is a Fulbright Scholar with over twenty years of experience in humanitarian coordination in a range of peace operations and humanitarian response contexts, working alongside host governments, local and international NGOs, and the United Nations.
We discuss the frictions between humanitarian operations and military operations.
Beth has field experience in Afghanistan, Liberia, Tonga, Costa Rica, Laos PDR, Timor-Leste, and Vietnam and has been on short-term deployments to Pakistan, Solomon Islands, Indonesia, and Sri Lanka. Whilst working with the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (UN OCHA) in Afghanistan for several years, Beth developed civil-military guidance, policy on interaction with Provincial Reconstruction Teams (PRTs) and was involved in rolling out humanitarian reform, including the cluster approach.
Beth has co-authored publications on the protection of humanitarian personnel, peace and development in Iraq, the Women, Peace & Security Agenda and was a member of the drafting team of Same Space Different Mandates: a civil-military guide to Australian stakeholders in international disaster and conflict response. Beth’s most recent publications include the chapter ‘Humanitarian Values and Military Objectives’ in Ethics Under Fire: Challenges for the Australian Army, and Humanitarian Civil-Military Coordination in Emergencies.
Beth has a Master of Development Studies and is a graduate of the Humanitarian Leadership Program. In 2011 Beth was awarded the Humanitarian Overseas Service Medal by the Australian government and she is currently serving on the Victorian Divisional Advisory Board of the Australian Red Cross.
Beth co-founded the Humanitarian Advisory Group (HAG) in 2012. After surviving the bureaucracy of large INGOs and the UN, she now enjoys working with a small team to deliver leading-edge research and advice to enable the humanitarian sector to perform at its best.
In 2019 Beth undertook her Fulbright Scholarship at the US Naval War College undertaking research with the Civilian-Military Humanitarian Response Program.
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
- 03:00. About Beth.
- 04:00. About being a ‘HAG’.
- 05:20. The ‘HAG’ acronym was no accident. And why it is not a dirty word.
- 07:00. What’s the most challenging humanitarian environment to work in.
- 09:50. Lessons from the Tamil Security Situation
- 11:48. Where is the line between defense and offence in overseas operations?
- 14:00. Tim hijacks the conversation and talks Sierra Leone…. Why didn’t the NGOs want anything to do with him?
- 19:50. NGOs and their strength inside communities (unlike militaries)
- 24:50. What’s the tipping point between agile NGOs and bureaucracy and lethargy.
- 36:49. The Fulbright Scholarship…. Tim shows his ignorance.
- 37:28. Tim has no clue. Beth needs to explain. Tim starts googling.
- 42:10. Tim’s google of Fulbright Scholars.
- 55:00. Militaries and mental health and advocates.
- 55:55. Quick Questions/ Quick Answers.
More on Beth & HAG
https://humanitarianadvisorygroup.org
Music
The Externals … music available on Spotify
Thanks to The Externals for the use of their music.
Monday Jun 22, 2020
Monday Jun 22, 2020
In this episode, Tim and Ben look back on their discussions with David Olney, Dr Kate Baecher and the amazing guests from their special Tempus Fugit double episode, before turning a very critical eye on their own performance in Alex Lloyd’s Life on the Line podcast.
As always, please let us know what you think! Good, bad or indifferent, we’d love to hear from you – please email debrief@unforgiving60.com.
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
01:30 Reflections on Dave Olney
01:40 How we first came to be introduced to Dave Olney – through one of his university students
02:30 Dave Olney on Dave Grossman
05:17 Dave Olney’s podcast Blind Insights – a cracking listen!
05:38 Tim and Ben discuss the potential of joining Dave on an episode of his ‘Blind Drunk Insights’ – potentially the only way they’ll be able to keep up with him intellectually
06:30 Reflections on Kate Baecher
07:00 Ben and Tim’s confessions regarding Dr Kate’s apple cider vinegar (ACV) prescription
07:50 Tim’s groundbreaking medical opinion on breathing
08:50 Ben talks about the main source of stress in his work life
09:20 Dr Kate’s advice on overcoming fear
10:00 Fear, sensory overload and innoculation
11:20 Psychology as part of a front-line emergency health care effort
12:24 Rock climbing: overcoming fear and flow states
14:35 Reflections on Tim Reynolds
15:22 The importance of family – even when you’re not facing a terminal prognosis
16:40 Tim Reynolds’ involvement in art as therapy
17:30 Link to the Unforgiving60 Instagram page, which features Tim Reynolds’ amazing portrait of Cameron Baird VC
18:37 Reflections on CPL Matt Williams OAM
19:20 Why Willy stood us up for the podcast
21:40 Ben and Tim on Ben and Tim on Life on the Line
23:30 Tim on his famous (potentially stolen) quote ‘Would you hire you?’
24:25 Ben and Time on ego (this is what Skyhooks think on the topic)
25:30 Imposter syndrome
27:30 Ben: “Different interactions with different people are going to have different results”. Profound….
28:30 Child soldiers – a really confronting concept
29:30 Ben and Tim debate how much Tim is worth – in terms of bounty and/or ransom
32:30 Update on Heather Taylor
34:00 ‘AIS’ actually stands for Automatic Identification System
36:00 Tim (non-Water Operator) talks a big game about sea-sickness. Ben (Water Operator) on his chronic sea-sickness.
37:30 What’s coming up next on the Unforgiving60?
37:45 Ben’s request for an Externals song as an outro – US Radio
External Links
- Dave Olney’s podcast Blind Insights
- Dr Kate Baecher’s business ElysiumHP
- MAPA – the Military Art Program Australia
- @willybeatingcancer – Matt Williams OAM’s Instagram page
- Alex Lloyd’s brilliant Life on the Line podcast
- Heather Taylor’s Pacific Giants Row
Music
The Externals … Available on Spotify (plus a bit of Ben’s guitar work, recorded in the bathroom of one of Saddam’s palaces in Tikrit, Iraq!)
Thursday Jun 18, 2020
Thursday Jun 18, 2020
"If you want to go fast go alone. If you want to go far go together" .... The Prime Minister of Australia re-quoted Corporal Matt Williams ('Willy') in his 2020 ANZAC Day address.
Why?
Well, the backstory is around 1700 people are diagnosed with brain cancer in Australia annually and approximately 1200 die from the disease every year. Brain cancer kills more children in Australia than any other disease and more people under 40 than any other cancer.
And Willy has got it.
Shortly after returning to South Australia from active duty in Afghanistan, 21-year-old (birthday in Kabul) Matt Williams began to endure persistent headaches. He had returned home to celebrate his birthday but was unaware that the biggest challenge of his life was about to begin.
In 2018, Matt finally discovered the cause of those headaches. They were being caused by stage 2 oligodendroglioma, a type of brain cancer that left Matt with an uncertain prognosis.
However, Matt has approached his diagnosis with his typically combative attitude, allowing his friends, family and the public an intimate look at his brain cancer journey via his hugely honest and moving social media accounts- Willy Beating Cancer.
Simply sharing his story on social media wasn’t enough for Matt. Since his diagnosis, he’s set about raising significant awareness and funds to help find a cure for this brutal disease. A large focus of his life post-diagnosis has been the challenge of staying fit during his treatment.
Willy was a 2020 SA Young Australian of the Year Nominee and a recent recipient of an OAM.
Intelligence Summary (INTSUM)
- 02:00. When and how the Prime Minister calls you for chat.
- 6:30. From Party boy Willy joins the Army.
- 11:20. Willy at initial Army training (Kapooka) and onto Infantry School (Singleton).
- 15:00. Arriving at his first Infantry Battalion.
- 21:00. Into Afghanistan ... Willy's role.
- 23:40. Willy describing the landscape of Kabul.
- 25:11. Willy's 21st birthday in Kabul.
- 26:30. The headaches start.
- 28:30. Willy gets his first cat-scan... and the first bad news.
- 31:30. The tests continue ..... and Willy sacks his surgeon!
- 32:40. Willy's prognosis
- 35:45. No more chemotherapy!
- 37:20. "Willy Beating Cancer" Instagram Account ... and his incredible following and feats.
- 39:45. Maintaining a positive approach in the face of everything
- 41:40. Willy's Death Party .... run by his Army mates!
- 43:50. Willy's experience on Taboo the Comedy Show (TV) .... getting the 'mickey' taken out of his illness.
- 46:30. A long list of Willy's achievements... what's next?
Music by The Externals ... available on Spotify.
Get in Touch
Friday Jun 12, 2020
Friday Jun 12, 2020
Another Special Episode with thanks again to Life on the Line Podcast, with Alex Lloyd. This is the second volume talking leadership with Ben, Tim again interviewed by Alex.
This time around they talk about:
- Their inclusion in Richard Baker's awesome podcast: 'The Last Voyage of the PONG SU'.
- Leading through COVID-19- complexity and chaos.
- Campaign planning and wargaming.
- Seizing high value targets in Timor Leste.
- Planning and executing elections in Afghanistan.
- Adaptation.... and an example in the transition out of Afghanistan.
- The complexity of leading foreign forces in Sierra Leone. And understanding the use of child soldiers.
- Stoic theories and their practical application.
- 12 June 1996, Tim and Ben remember the BlackHawk Disaster. Tragic loss. But resilient response.
** This episode is released on 12th June and on the 24th anniversary of the Blackhawk Disaster in North Queensland which killed 15 SAS operators and 3 aircrew. Lest we forget.
*** Please check out 'Life on the Line' Podcast .... to hear far more inspirational and interesting guests than our co-hosts!
End Music by the Externals, US Radio (available on Spotify).